Free Will in Heaven?

[bartdanr]

Hi All,

Do you believe we will have free will in heaven? If so, what is to prevent evil from coming into heaven? Will people be so changed so that though they will be free, they will never choose evil? If it is possible to be free and never choose evil, then why weren't we made this way to begin with?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Peace

 

[jorylore]

Great question. My understanding is that free will is a gift from God. Even the angels have it and they live in heaven. There has been no rebellion since Satan and his demons. If the angels can live with free will, using it responsibly to do God's will, than I would think the humans that go to heaven can as well.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

What's there to do in heaven that would be evil? Can't kill, can't steal, can't do any of the evils that involve having a body and worldly possessions, really. I suppose you could think nasty thoughts?

 

[Original Freak]

What's there to do in heaven that would be evil? Can't kill, can't steal, can't do any of the evils that involve having a body and worldly possessions, really. I suppose you could think nasty thoughts?

It woudln't be heaven to me if you couldn't.

 

[jonny]

God has given us agency in this life - I don't see how it could be heaven if he took it away from us in the next life.

We qualify for entrance into Heaven by proving our commitment to God in this life. We will have our free will, but there will not be evil there because those who are in heaven will have already rejected evil.

 

[Aqualung]

Good points, jonny. Another thing I could think of is that most of the Evil today comes from not knowing what God's will is, or not having the strength to follow it (because we don't know that he exists, for example, or through the Devil's temptations). Once we are in heaven, we will know that God exists, there will be no devil to tempt us, and we will know what he wants. That pretty much takes away all the reason we have today to be evil. And the people who are truly evil, who, knowing God's will, have purposefully rejected it, won't be in heaven.

 

[bartdanr]

What's there to do in heaven that would be evil? Can't kill, can't steal, can't do any of the evils that involve having a body and worldly possessions, really. I suppose you could think nasty thoughts?

Hi Standing,

Do you believe in a satanic fall, or that angels (if they exist) could sin?

I'm not sure that incorporal existence would mean freedom from evil. What if someone looked at all the attention and worship that God was getting and wanted some for him/herself?

Peace

 

[bartdanr]

God has given us agency in this life - I don't see how it could be heaven if he took it away from us in the next life.

We qualify for entrance into Heaven by proving our commitment to God in this life. We will have our free will, but there will not be evil there because those who are in heaven will have already rejected evil.

Thanks for the reply, jonny.

Good answer--except it brings up two questions: (1) we know in this life we can choose good, then choose evil again, and waffle back and forth. In other words, not only are none of us perfect, but none of us become perfect in this life. If we just happen to die waffling on the side of good, is that really a choice for "good"? What happens to us in heaven where we become perfect and no longer chose evil?

(2) Why didn't God set things up like that eventual state to begin with, rather than go through the messiness of the current world? Was God unable to create us perfect, yet free? Was it necessary for us to actually experience choice in order to chose good?

This leads to a third question: (3) Now, if you are a universalist, then this isn't applicable: but why did God bother making the people who would not eventually chose good?

Peace

 

[bartdanr]

Good points, jonny. Another thing I could think of is that most of the Evil today comes from not knowing what God's will is, or not having the strength to follow it (because we don't know that he exists, for example, or through the Devil's temptations). Once we are in heaven, we will know that God exists, there will be no devil to tempt us, and we will know what he wants. That pretty much takes away all the reason we have today to be evil. And the people who are truly evil, who, knowing God's will, have purposefully rejected it, won't be in heaven.

Thanks for your reply, Aqualung.

If all (or most) evil comes from the temptation of the devil, then why does God allow him to exist now? Does he serve a necessary function this side of heaven? In other words, unless the devil existed for this time, a heaven full of free but good beings could not exist?

Peace

 

[bartdanr]

Great question. My understanding is that free will is a gift from God. Even the angels have it and they live in heaven. There has been no rebellion since Satan and his demons. If the angels can live with free will, using it responsibly to do God's will, than I would think the humans that go to heaven can as well.

Thanks for the reply, jorylore.

Your reply brings up another question: if God could make angels with free will but yet good, why then does he not do so with humans? (Sub-question: why did God creat Satan--or anyone evil--with the perfect foreknowledge that they would freely chose evil? Was it somehow necessary to create beings who would chose evil to create an eventual heaven filled with free but good beings?)

Peace

 

[Mike182]

i believe that we will have free will no matter what, and we will always eb able to choose to follow god or not, i believe that satan chose to rebel, and was punish acordingly, i believe that adam and eve fell from grace, and they (and we) were/are punished acordingly

revelations speaks of gods glory in heaven and that all the angels spend all their time praising god because they can see him in all his beauty and glory and magnifisance (spelling???)

i dont think you have the right context of heaven though (or you have a different idea of what heaven will be like to me ) i dont believe heaven will be like going down the pub for a social, where i can choose to drink from satans beer tap or gods beer tap. i dont think we will have physical bodies and we will not b capable of doing physical deeds, yet i also dont think this is restrictive because i think we will be in a state of absolute peace and clearness of mind

i dont think that people who see gods glory, and still feel inclined to drink from satans 'beer tap' wil not recieve that which was promised through christ, and i believe gods kingdom on high will never be tainted with evil or perverted from absolute truth



just my thoughts, but its all based on how i view heaven, so anyone who views heaven differently to me will probably not agree with my sentiments

C_P

 

[bartdanr]

i dont think that people who see gods glory, and still feel inclined to drink from satans 'beer tap' wil not recieve that which was promised through christ, and i believe gods kingdom on high will never be tainted with evil or perverted from absolute truth

Thanks for your post, corrupt_preist.

This brings up three questions: (1) after seeing God's glory, why was Satan inclined to rebel? What would make us exempt from this same falling? (2) If it is possible that certain individuals would never be tempted to sin in this context (yet they remain free), why didn't God just create those individuals, instead of creating those also who are inclined to sin? And (3) Why didn't God begin with this end state, rather than having us go through life with the existence of evil? Is evil somehow necessary to create heaven?

Peace

 

[Mike182]

Thanks for your post, corrupt_preist.

you are quite welcome

This brings up three questions:

lets go for it!!!!

(1) after seeing God's glory, why was Satan inclined to rebel? What would make us exempt from this same falling?

i cannot give a deffinate answer to this, for i do not know the entirety of what happend. im not sure, and i could be heavily criticised for what im about to say, but could it be possible, for god to have willed it for satan to rebel? it will make sense later - please no half-reading on this post

(2) If it is possible that certain individuals would never be tempted to sin in this context (yet they remain free), why didn't God just create those individuals, instead of creating those also who are inclined to sin?

because if we were created in that way we would not be required to take the leap of faith required to accept gods unconditional love. free will is the ultimate gift good gave us, and he loves us soo much more for CHOOSING him as appose to being born into faith

And (3) Why didn't God begin with this end state, rather than having us go through life with the existence of evil? Is evil somehow necessary to create heaven?

i have gone through some very tough and trying times, and my faith has grown expernantially through the suffering, and i believe taht is gods plan for all of us - people often ask how can an all loving and all powerful god allow evil and suffering - and that is why, because suffering (no matter how evil) allows us to grow spiritually

i am going over to india in febuary next year with my aunt who has gone several times before, and the people there have nothing, they dont even know where their next meal is coming from, and they rely on god for everything, and because they must trust that god will come through, their faith is unbelievably stronger than a lot of peoples in this country

anyway, without the fall of adam and eve, this form of growth would not be possible, so could it be possible that god wanted satan to rebel? in our current mind states, we will never grasp gods complete plan, so i can only speculate - feel free to argue/question

Peace

you too
hope i answerd the questions, if you have any more then just post them, im always happy to contribute
C_P

 

[bartdanr]

you are quite welcome

lets go for it!!!!


i cannot give a deffinate answer to this, for i do not know the entirety of what happend. im not sure, and i could be heavily criticised for what im about to say, but could it be possible, for god to have willed it for satan to rebel? it will make sense later - please no half-reading on this post


because if we were created in that way we would not be required to take the leap of faith required to accept gods unconditional love. free will is the ultimate gift good gave us, and he loves us soo much more for CHOOSING him as appose to being born into faith


i have gone through some very tough and trying times, and my faith has grown expernantially through the suffering, and i believe taht is gods plan for all of us - people often ask how can an all loving and all powerful god allow evil and suffering - and that is why, because suffering (no matter how evil) allows us to grow spiritually

i am going over to india in febuary next year with my aunt who has gone several times before, and the people there have nothing, they dont even know where their next meal is coming from, and they rely on god for everything, and because they must trust that god will come through, their faith is unbelievably stronger than a lot of peoples in this country

anyway, without the fall of adam and eve, this form of growth would not be possible, so could it be possible that god wanted satan to rebel? in our current mind states, we will never grasp gods complete plan, so i can only speculate - feel free to argue/question



you too
hope i answerd the questions, if you have any more then just post them, im always happy to contribute
C_P

Thanks again for your post, Corrupt_Priest.

If, as you suggest, spiritual growth is attained by suffering, then (1) does God require his/her own suffering for his/her own spiritual perfection? And (2) until the advent of evil, was God not spiritually as advanced as s/he is today? In other words, did God require conflict and imperfection for him/her to advance him/herself spiritually?

Peace

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Hi All,

Do you believe we will have free will in heaven? If so, what is to prevent evil from coming into heaven? Will people be so changed so that though they will be free, they will never choose evil? If it is possible to be free and never choose evil, then why weren't we made this way to begin with?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Peace

the simple answer to your first question is, yes, we will have free will in Heaven, but we will not have a body. We will not be exposed to the same conditions that are involved with the material world.

The second part of your question is a little hard to explain. We were made like that to begin with. The trouble started when we decided to judge for ourselves what is good and what is evil. We are spiritual beings having an earthly experience. In Heaven there is no fear for survival, or lack of love, or pain and suffering caused by the growth and decay of our bodies.

The goal is to over come our material reality and reconnect with our spiritual reality, and then to connect the two in such a way that you no longer have to die to cross over into Heaven. Satan was made by God, he is called the ironsmith, one who will purify our spirits by putting us through the fire. The negativity of satan is neccessary for spiritual growth.

 

[Mike182]

Thanks again for your post, Corrupt_Priest.

If, as you suggest, spiritual growth is attained by suffering, then (1) does God require his/her own suffering for his/her own spiritual perfection? And (2) until the advent of evil, was God not spiritually as advanced as s/he is today? In other words, did God require conflict and imperfection for him/her to advance him/herself spiritually?

Peace

the idea of god advancing as we do is very comforting to some people, but the god i worship already IS spiritually perfect - and wants us to become like he is - so must aid us in out growth

did god require conflict - does he stil get conflict - i guess it depends what you mean by conflict. i have a big disagreements with my church on a few issues, and god is often drawn into the conflict via the bible, and we will all go away and prey on it together and seperatley - this could be viewed as god's conflict to solve, but i think they are trivial issues to god, and all he needs to do is reaffirm in us his unconditional love for all of us, and let us reach our own half way point - this is the only type of situation that i can think of where god would be in conflict, and as i explained, i dont see it as a conflict for god

did god require growth before he created the universe, i cannot answer that - but i guess he spent some time planning and calculating - and imagining

hope ive helped

C_P

 

[jonny]

Good answer--except it brings up two questions: (1) we know in this life we can choose good, then choose evil again, and waffle back and forth. In other words, not only are none of us perfect, but none of us become perfect in this life. If we just happen to die waffling on the side of good, is that really a choice for "good"? What happens to us in heaven where we become perfect and no longer chose evil?

I don't believe that God's judgement will be so simple and I don't believe in death bed repentance. I believe that this life is part of a progression that will continue into the next life. When we die, we will not immediately be judged. Rather, we will be in a state where we can continue to learn, make decisions, and progress. At the final judgement God will have a clear idea of where our heart lies. We will have been thoroughly tested. It's like a test in school - you don't get an A because you get the last question right.

I do believe in repentance, but I believe that God will take your knowledge and experiences into consideration when judging you.

(2) Why didn't God set things up like that eventual state to begin with, rather than go through the messiness of the current world? Was God unable to create us perfect, yet free? Was it necessary for us to actually experience choice in order to chose good?

Free agency is one of the greatest gifts from God. God did create us perfect. When Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden he was perfect. God allowed us to come to earth to learn to become like Him. He promised that he would send a Savior to redeem us from our sins. Through Christ we can all become perfect again. I believe that the experiences that we have in this life are to help us learn and grow.

(This leads to a third question: (3) Now, if you are a universalist, then this isn't applicable: but why did God bother making the people who would not eventually chose good?

This is a great question. I guess my answer would be that there must be opposition in all things. Without evil there is no good. Without sin there is no righteousness. If there is no choice, there is no agency. Since agency is essential to the plan of God, there would be no point for our existence without it.

The LDS views on the plan of salvation are simple and complicated at the same time. If you would like a good overview of the subject visit this site: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/Plan_Salvation_EOM.htm

 

[jonny]

(1) after seeing God's glory, why was Satan inclined to rebel? What would make us exempt from this same falling?

I would say that pride was the cause of Lucifer's rebellion - and the cause of most wickedness in the world today.

 

[Quiddity]

Great topic.
Free will in heaven is certainly hard to imagine because we attach and dwell ourselves to worldly things which gets us into trouble. Once a person is in heaven the only thing that fulfills him/her is God's Love. Everything else is but nothing compared to it. The details are unknown, but this is as best as I could muster.
Humans beings move toward pleasure and run from pain. It's an innate ability that we have. This may kick in to the highest degree in heaven.

~Victor

 

[bartdanr]

I would say that pride was the cause of Lucifer's rebellion - and the cause of most wickedness in the world today.

Hi Jonny, thanks for the post,

What do you think made Lucifer, dwelling in God's glory, subject to pride and yet when we dwell in God's glory we won't be subject to pride?

Peace