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For LDS only...some tricky questions

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by Truth_Faith13, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I believe he says simply that "we don't have a definite scriptural record" of his ordination to the quorum of the twelve. That doesn't necessarily mean anything. After all, the Catholics can't provide an actual written record of when Linus (who supposedly succeeded Peter) was ordained, even though they claim it happened. Actually, some sources (notably Tertullian) claim that Clement, not Linus, succeeded Peter. At any rate, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to say that Paul was "an Apostle in a sense" since a person was either an Apostle or not. Anyone can be a disciple (i.e. a follower of Christ), but one has to be ordained as an Apostle.

    I can see why it would have been considered vitally important in the Apostles' day for a replacement in the council to have been a witness of Christ's resurrection, but for obvious reasons that requirement couldn't possibly have been expected to continue forever. So really, I see the real issue as concerning whether the office of Apostle was supposed to continue after Christ died or not. The fact that Matthias was chosen to replace Judas strongly implies that it was. That Barnabas and James (Jesus' brother) were also said to be Apostles, further strengthens this argument. Catholicism claims to still have "apostolic authority" even though they don't believe there to still be twelve Apostles, but when it gets right down to it, they're up against the same "gotcha" as the LDS are -- eventually, there would come a time when no eyewitnesses to the Resurrection remained alive. If their bishops or arch-bishops or cardinals or whatever have apostolic authority, they are no more entitled to it than the LDS Apostles since they did not witness the Resurrection either.

    I think Scott and Jane have both given you good answers. There's probably no reason for me to say more.

    Boy, by the time you make your decision, you're going to know more about both Catholicism and Mormonism than many Catholics and Mormons!
     
    #361 Katzpur, Jan 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  2. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    He established one church in two places. He established His church in the Old World, then He established His church in the New World.

    As Scott pointed out, the twelve who were ordained in the Americas were referred to as "twelve disciples," not Apostles. These twelve disciples in America would be hierarchically "beneath" the twelve Apostles, and would have operated under their direction had they been on the same continent. That they operated independently was a function of the time they lived in, being on separate continents without any means of communication.
     
  3. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    I wonder if True Faith is still out there. It's been over a month.
     
  4. Truth_Faith13

    Truth_Faith13 Active Member

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    Yes I am still here...lots happening so been busy. Also as Katz has mentioned, I know quite a lot of "info" now so its more about me working it out/feeling it/learning for myself etc so I suppose I have fewer questions. I took some time out too as was getting myself worked up over it again.
     
  5. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    Well, I suppose that's a good thing, except we do miss chatting with you.
     
  6. Truth_Faith13

    Truth_Faith13 Active Member

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    Well I do have a question for you Jane :) (well anyone with kids). How do you manage kids routines around church? I think my branch starts at 10am and finishes at 1pm. My kids eat at 11:30am and sleep at 12:30pm?
     
  7. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    How old were your kids again? (Obviously this answer is different for a 5 year old vs newborn)
     
  8. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    Though random kid at church story:
    We were sitting at church and they were passing out the bread during the Lord’s Supper. I pulled DD close to me, and whispered “Do you know what the bread reminds us of?” She shook her head no, so I taught “Jesus. The bread reminds us of Jesus and all He did for us”.

    She thought this really hard for a three-year-old minute and said “I need jeese”.
    “Do you need Jesus, big girl?” I grinned, so proud of her.
    “No- I need CHEESE!” Ooh... that’s not exciting. And DD knows she's not allowed to have cheese!
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hey, nice to see you again!

    In Nursery, a snack is almost always provided for the little ones, and it's generally something pretty nourishing. In your branch, Nursery would probably start at 11:20 and go until 1:00. Little ones tend to kind of freak out the first few times they're left in Nursery, but most Nursery leaders are happy to have the moms join them for the first few times, till the child gets to know what to expect.

    Also, every mom I know takes a few finger foods with her to Sacrament Meeting in little plastic bags. Here in the US, it's often Cheerios or some other dry cereal little fingers can pick up easily and not make too big of a mess with. Look into "Quiet Books." Deseret Book probably sells them, or you can make them on your own (if you have more talent in that arena than I do). Or take a coloring book or just some plain paper and a few crayons with you to church. Nobody will think less of you for that. Or encourage them to lie down on the pews and rest if they will. But definitely, check out Deseret Book online and see if they have things to keep the little ones entertained during Sacrament Meeting or just google "quiet books." Once your oldest is three and can start attending Primary, part of your problem will be solved, as most kids love Primary. I'd say the biggest problem is when they're between a year and eighteen months old -- kind of a difficult in-between kind of time when it comes to church stuff. And finally, if you feel like you can only do one or two of the three hours, then do that for the time being. It's definitely easier with two parents there to deal with the kids. If it's just you alone, maybe that would be your best option until your oldest can start Primary.
     
    #369 Katzpur, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  10. Truth_Faith13

    Truth_Faith13 Active Member

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    They are currently 2 and 7 months.
     
  11. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    (My posts largely echoes Katz's)

    Food: Honestly I try to feed them before church and just have snacks during sacrament meeting. Realistically it usually turns into snack before church and then eating lots of Cheerios during Sacrament meeting. The 2 year old will be fed snacks in Nursery too. And there's nothing wrong with feeding the 7 mo old whenever.

    Nap: naps are harder. If they're ok waiting to get out of church at 1 and then go straight to bed when you get home, I'd do that. Heck, maybe Nursery will tire the 2 yo out a little! I went through a phase when then 10 month old had wanted to nap at 930 when church stared at 9 till 12. That was hard.

    Other behavior stuff: don't try to perfection-freak this. Speaking realistically, I am very happy all the times someone else's kid screams louder that week than mine. Last week she and I had a conversation about how the hymn book is not for coloring. And she seemingly always needs to go potty in the middle of passing out the Sacrament- and then informs the entire congregation about it. Honestly all the congregation members laugh and tell me stories of when THIER kids colored in the hymnbook, or chewed on the pews, or ran up on the stand, or whatever.
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Oh, I can top that! When my daughter was just a baby (under a year old), she developed a kind of a comfort habit of sucking her right thumb and putting her left hand down inside the front of her diaper. I didn't think a whole lot of it until she got a little older and didn't drop the habit. By the time she was somewhere between two and three, my husband and I started telling her, "Sweetheart, take you hand out of your diaper." She'd do as we said but then five minutes later, it was back. One Sunday in Sacrament Meeting just before she turned four, she was standing on the seat of the pew with her right thumb in her mouth and her left hand down in her diaper. "Take your hand out of your diaper. Now!" I whispered. Since I don't think anyone had heard me whisper to her and her pronunciation was (fortunately) pretty bad at that age, even though she responded loudly enough for several rows of people to hear her, I'm still hoping that none of them understood what she was saying. Anyway, she glared at me and loudly informed me, "Ow pway wif my dzina if I wanoo!"
     
    #372 Katzpur, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  13. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    True Faith 13 asks : “ Secondly, he mentions that Jesus set up two churches...One in Palestine and then one in the Americas (IE the Book of Mormon etc) with a whole new set of 12 apostles etc. I thought LDS believed Jesus established one church? Not two?


    While I cannot tell what concepts underlie any personal use of the words “church” or “apostle” (e.g. Talmages’ use or anyone elses use of these terms), still, I simply wanted to offer a historical comment on the early usage of the terms, “Church” and “apostle”.

    “Εκκλεσια” is the greek word that is most often rendered “church” in English bibles. Regarding historical context, the base meaning of the word is simply a "summoned" or "invited" assembly. The word is not particularly religious in it's base usage.

    For example, any public assembly of citizens was an εκκλεσια. It is a compound word, made up from the words for “called” or “invited” and “out” or “out of”. It is a gathering, whether made up of citizens, or a farmers market, or of religious individuals. For example, The Septuagint uses the term t indicate the community of Israel (whether they were gathered together or not). The gathering of individuals in the theatre of Ephesus uses the word referring to the patrons who gathered at the theater there. In all these uses, it can be used to distinguish those who “gathered” to the assembly from those who did not “gather” to an assembled group. (e.g. “Israel” vs “not Israel”).

    In the context of early Judeo-Christian religious use, it referred to those who gathered to a set of religious principles, whether in or outside of this life. For example, 2nd Clement was referring to this eternal context of “gathering” when telling the earliest judeo-christians, that “… the Books and the Apostles declare that the church not only exists now, but has been in existence from the beginning. For she was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, but was revealed in the last days in order that she might save us. … For this flesh is a copy of the spirit. No one, therefore, who corrupts the copy will share in the original” (2nd Clement 14:3) In such a religious context, the gathering as a verb and as a noun, referred to an eternal principle and thing.

    Thus Hermas in the early New Testament (C. sinaiticus) epistle spoke of the church in speaking to the angel about his vision : “Who do you think the elderly woman from whom you received the little book was?” I said : “The Sibyl.” “You are wrong,” he said. “She is not.” “Then who is she?” I said. “The Church” he replied. I said to him “Why, then, is she elderly?” “Because,” he said, “she was created before all things; therefore she is elderly, and for her sake the world was formed.” (Hermas 8:1)

    Such statements may be disorienting to non-historians, until one keeps in mind the early judeo-christian context of the "church" / Εκκλεσια / “gathering” when reading such references. Just as a building exists "spiritually" in a detailed blue-print before it exists "physically" (i.e. is "created", the “Church” as an Εκκλεσια (the assembly of those who are invited, summoned or “called out” ‘εκ-καλεο’ of a larger group) also existed from the early stages in this eternal plan long before it existed physically after physical creation. Thus the prophet Enoch says that “...There is no such thing as non-existence before him. (Even) before the world was created, he knows what is forever and what will be from generation to generation…Enoch 39:11

    Inside this early religious symbolism, New Testament parables regarding invitations to gather can make better sense and provide more profound insights. Whether it is the Lord who “invites” all to come unto him, versus the devil who “inviteth and enticeth” to sin, or “everything which inviteth and enticeth to do good”, still there are invitations and gatherings of individuals that are occuring and each gathering is made up of individual assembling based upon principles and characteristics that attract them. In this early context, it does not matter if the gathering is happening in one or two or a hundred different places in the world, either in modern times or anciently. What it is describing is the gathering towards certain eternal principles.

    I'd like to comment on the use of the word "apostle" since that was a different question, but it's late where I am, so I'll get to that later.

    Clear
    σισιφυτωω
     
  14. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    TrueFaith13 asked : " However if he agrees that an Apostle has to have known Jesus etc, why would he expect the present day church (IE in his mind LDS) to have 12 apostles since none of them can fulfill the biblical requirements of an apostle which Talmage seems to accept?


    Regarding the word apostle (grk αποστολος) and its ancient usage.

    In ancient greek usage, it is a term borrowed from nautical language. ”. In early Papyri, αποστολος (“Apostle”) referred to “a ship” such as carried cargo (as it is used in P Oxy III, 522 of ii a.d.) Thus, in P Tebt II 486 (of ii/iii a.d. – which is an account of expenses in the transporting corn) the term refers to its broader sense as a ship LADEN with a cargo.

    Each αποστολος (ship) involved in commerce was frequently known by the name of its’ owner. For example, the λογος αποστολου Τριαδελφου, meant the “account for the ship of Triadelphus”. P Oxy IX, 1197.13 (of 211 a.d.) οποταν τα εξ αποστολων πλοια παραγεινται, which Hunt, renders : “whenever the boats collected in accordance with the orders of lading arrive”. It is this context he cites P Amh II.138.10 (of 326 a.d.) εξ αποστολου της ταξεως as fast ships where a ship-master is embarking with loads “in accordance with the bill of lading of the Officium”.


    One can easily see why religious usage was used to indicate someone who is sent, bearing a message. Thus, in Herod I, 21 it is used to indicate a “messenger” or “envoy”. In P Par p. 411 f. (of 191 b.c.) a public official uses the word for a messenger he sends bearing orders to a delinquent whose orders he had previously disregarded. The usage of the term by Christians developed the context of someone on a “special” mission, or having a “special” rank, however it is just as correct to use it for anyone who is sent bearing any message as well.

    John 1:6 uses this form for John the Baptist “ Εγενετο ανθροπος απεσταλμενος παρα θεου / κυριου…There was a man sent from God…” (Codex Bezae reads “There was a man sent from the Lord…”. In either case, John the Baptist, though never one of the twelve “apostles”, is an “apostle” in the sense that he was sent and, just as a ship bore cargo, he bore a special message for the world. One need not be one of the 12 special witnesses, in order to be sent, or to be sent with a message, or to be an "apostle" per se.

    Thus, whether is it wages, or corn or a man that is being sent out, the base concept is of something sent out and borne from one place to another. This was one of the differences in early Christianity between the position of a Bishop, who was supposed to remain in a congregation and an apostle who was supposed to travel and bear his message abroad. This is the distinction made in the first century Christian Didache text where the early Christians are taught :

    Now, concerning the apostles and prophets, deal with them as follows in accordance with the rule of the gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be welcomed as if he were the Lord. But he is not to stay for more than one day, unless there is need....” (Didache 11:4)

    Just as it came to be used (e.g. Syll 153 Papyri of 325 b.c.) as a “fleet” or “naval expedition that is sent out, when a person was sent out, the twelve special disciples were referred to as αποστολοi (apostles) and, similarly, they were sent out, like ships, laden, not with corn, but with their religious message that was to be carried far and wide.

    The concept of there being twelve religious leaders in the early Christian movement in Jerusalem, does not exclude a similar organization in multiple other sites. In fact, this is a pattern of ancient Judeo-Christian religion. For example, the Dead Sea texts describe this same sort of organization existing with a group of 12 leaders, having a presidency of three, all being chosen for their moral qualities : “In the society of the yahad there shall be 12 laymen and three priests who are blameless in the light of all that has been revealed from the whole Law, so as to work truth, righteousness, justice, loving-kindness, and humility, one with another. ...They will be “the tested wall, the precious cornerstone” (Isa 28:16) whose foundations shall neither be shaken nor swayed, a fortress, a Holy of Holies for Aaron, all of them knowing the Covenant of Justice and thereby offering a sweet savor. They shall be a blameless and true house in Israel, upholding the covenant of eternal statutes... 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 8.

    That Joseph Smith uses this same pattern in describing the leadership of the religious movement among the early Christians on the American Continent is another mark of authenticity, though I do not think anyone, other than historians might realize the significance of these subtle historical patterns.

    Clear
    σισινεσιω

    If I can get some time later, I'd like to make a simple point regarding how the term "witness" was used anciently and why I think the term was more appropriate for certain individuals moreso than others.
     
    #374 Clear, Mar 18, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  15. Truth_Faith13

    Truth_Faith13 Active Member

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    Oh that's hilarious!
     
  16. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    THE NATURE OF A WITNESS INVOLVED GIVING PERSONAL EVIDENCE

    John 1:6, describes John “as a witness” who came to “witness” concerning Jesus as the “light” of the world. (‘…Ουτος ηλθεν εις μαρτυριαν, ινα μαρτυρηση περι του φοτος...”

    Moulton and Milligan demonstrated from early koine papyi that the common use of this term after a signature was used just as we write “witness” after a signature on a legal document. That is, it is not merely someone simply MAKING a claim, but rather someone who can give EVIDENCE of a claim from what they saw and heard.

    In 124 a.d., a man Stotetis, wrote regarding a murder : “…there were present, persons able to witness to the murder” (P Amh II. 66:35). In 3 a.d. P Oxy Vii. 1064:12 applies this term to one who will be asked to give a personal verbal report of what they, themselves will experience and who “may bear witness of it to me”.

    This usage of “witness” is a legal context for one who can report, first hand, of what was done, whether the witness is how one was treated, or in the case of a murder that one was to witness to. The underlying qualification for “witnessing” is that one is describing what one actually has seen and heard first hand, not what they have read or heard about another persons experiences or claims. Thus, μαρτυριαν ποιησασθαι, meant, “to give evidence” in a legal sense. It is related to the English word “martyr” since a martyr was one who gave their life as evidence of their faith in a religious claim.

    In this ancient context, the Christian "witness" was not merely making a claim or offering a personal theory about Jesus. But this context involved producing and giving evidence for a thing. The important difference lies between acknowledging that one believes that Jesus was the Christ and another person who can offer reasonable and logical evidence as to why Jesus is the Christ.

    This is yet another difference between authentic “vertical” ancient and “horizontal” religion. “Vertical religion” experiences authentic revelation and its accompanying relationship to a living God and while the horizontal theologians’ reads about the experiences of authentic revelation and seeks a relationship to God by reading or listening to what others have experienced.

    The authentic experience is what underlies the witness borne of revelation which says “I know….” While the theologians may claim “I read…” or “I heard it said ….” Or “the bible says….”, the authentic witness borne of revelation offered personal experiences “I saw…. I experienced….I wrote…”

    Anyone who has received authentic revelation (barring the fakers and in mentally unstable), may bear authentic personal experiences as evidence that God still lives, still cares, and still communicates with his children. The superior value of personal experience with God is why I pointed out that revelation from God is the strongest personal evidence that God lives.

    Clear
    σιακακτωω
     
    #376 Clear, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  17. Truth_Faith13

    Truth_Faith13 Active Member

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    Oh yay, it's letting me post on this thread again! Have they changed the rules with DIR forums? For a few days, I thought I was locked out my own thread.

    What's the general perception from the LDS of the Didache? Catholics site it as "proof" that Catholicism is true original religion. It certainly has a Catholic ring to it (fast days, baptism etc).
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Apparently you just have to request permission now. I don't know when that started, but I was locked out of the LDS DIR for a while, too. ;)

    Even though I have a copy of the Didache, I have not actually read it. I know that in Barry Bickmore's book, "Restoring the Ancient Church," he references the Didache as a source on numerous occasions. I've looked at a few of them and thought, "Well, that certainly supports LDS theology!" When it gets right down to it, I don't think that there is even such a thing as "proof" that either Catholicism or Mormonism is the "original thing" or the "real deal." When I went in to LDS.org and did a search on it, I got a few references to the document, but not a whole lot. You may want to read what's available there. If you do, just go to this link. Another option would be to send a PM to @Clear, who knows more about topics of this sort than the average 10,000 Mormons put together. :D
     
    #378 Katzpur, May 9, 2017
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  19. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Post one of two

    Hi TrueFaith13 and Katzpur :

    Regarding the general perception from the LDS of the Didache.

    It seems to be rare for either an average Catholic or an Average Mormon to even be aware of the Didache. However, Older religions such as the Roman Catholics and the restoration of the early Christianity will be able to see some parallels to their doctrines in this early and wonderful document. While I think both Catholics and LDS will find that it is friendly to certain aspects of their worldview (i.e. has a friendly "ring" to them both), I do not think very many of the modern protestant movements would be as able to use it as well as old or restored theological movements are able to use it.

    The Didache means [the] teaching. There are references to it by ancient writers (some of whom used it as scripture) such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Didymus the blind. It was discovered in 1873 for the first time and is composed of Two parts:
    1) instruction about "The Two ways". Good vs Evil, Light vs Dark, Salvation vs Damnation, etc. The LDS will easily recognize the parallels to the sermon of Lehi (opposition in all things) in this early portion of the Didache.
    2) A manual of church order and practice.

    1) REGARDING BABTISM (as a specific example)
    I think the Catholics will be quite interested in the parallels to an early version of mode of baptism other than immersion. The LDS will also see a parallel of an ordinance that is allowed to be done in a different mode unless and until the proper way can be accomplished. It parallels for example, the principle of D&C 124:28-31, where Baptism for the dead (a temple ordinance) was allowed to be done outside the temple and in a different manner when the Saints had no ability to accomplish it in the correct manner.

    Similarly the Didache says to submerse (βαπτιζω - baptize) if it can be done, but it if cannot be done properly, then one may pour water. “Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” in running water”. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. But if you have neither, then pour water on the head three times “ in the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.Didache 7:1. IF they had sufficient water to immerse (i.e. to baptize), then it was not acceptable to pour water.

    2) EUCHARIST/SACRAMENT

    The Didache contains the earliest version of Eucharistic prayers outside of the Biblical text. “Now, concerning the Eucharist, give thanks as follows. First concerning the cup :... And concerning the broken bread :... But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord, for the Lord has also spoken concerning this: “Do not give what is holy to dogs.” The Didache 9:1-3 and 5;

    The LDS will note the association of the Eucharist with the principle of repentance and inside of prior commitment/covenant. For example, a line in the prayer given AFTER the Eucharist says : “If anyone is holy, let him come; if anyone is not, let him repent. Maranatha! Amen" Didache 10:6.

    I think both LDS and Catholics would be able to find shared concept of repentance represented by actions in the Didache. "You shall not be double-minded, or double-tongued, for the “double-tongue” is a deadly snare. Your word must not be false or meaningless, but confirmed by action.” Didache 2:5;

    The symbolism involved in the early Eucharist is not so much later Catholicism as pointing toward those who have gathered to the kingdom of Christ. It was still a “thank meal” at this point in history and still related to those who were gathering. “Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks as follows....3 And concerning the broken bread:....4 “Just as this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and then was gathered together and became one, so may your church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom; for yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever.” The Didache 9:1-4 Those who had gathered to the church and who are partaking of the Eucharist are implied to have a specific glory and power promised them. The parallel to modern LDS eucharist/sacrament is obvious.

    3) APOSTLES AND PROPHETS IN THE CHURCH / RELATIONSHIP TO OTHER PRIESTHOOD

    The Didache was written at a time and written TO a Christianity that was still characterized by living apostles and prophets. “Let every apostle who comes to you be welcomed as if he were the Lord” Didache 155:11:4

    However, not everyone who speaks in the spirit is a prophet, but only if he exhibits the Lord’s ways. By his conduct, therefore, will the false prophet and the prophet be recognized.Didache 11:8;

    The Didache seems to show some increased concern to differentiate Christian practice from Jewish Rituals (8.1) and in particular the form of church structure. Not only is the Didache written in context of the structure of resident bishops and deacons (cf phil 1:1) but in the original context and existence and role of traveling apostles and prophets alongside this resident ministry. Thus, in the Didache, an apostle or prophet was not to stay among the group, but to travel. The LDS will note that these notes speak very clearly to their type of organisation.

    Now, concerning the apostles and prophets, deal with them as follows in accordance with the rule of the gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be welcomed as if he were the Lord. But he is not to stay for more than one day, unless there is need....But if he asks for money, he is a false prophet.Didache 11:4;

    4) EARLY CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT WAS A MORAL MOVEMENT
    I think Catholics and LDS would be equally confirmed in the early description of sexual morals displayed in the Didache. In fact, “The second commandment of the teaching is: “You shall not murder; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not corrupt boys; you shall not be sexually promiscuous; you shall not steal; you shall not practice magic; you shall not engage in sorcery; you shall not abort a child or commit infanticide.” Didache 2:1-2. These sorts of descriptions concerning morality were part of the fare of early Christian texts (cf barnabas, etc).

    5) APOSTASY WAS ESCHEWED BUT EXPECTED
    The LDS will note the frequent and confirming references in early literature to an apostasy that was expected to take place. Individuals were to “Gather together frequently, seeking the things that benefit your souls, ....For in the last days the false prophets and corrupters will abound, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate.” Didache 16:3;

    As with many of the early (uncopyrighted) texts, the writers of the Didache were concerned that their writings and the gospel itself will be corrupted partly through additions and abandonments to the doctrines and their texts : ”You must not forsake the Lord’s commandments, but must guard what you have received, neither adding nor subtracting anything. In church you shall confess your transgressions, and you shall not approach your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life..." Didache 4:14

    The LDS will see parallels in the concept that the idle shall not ear the bread of the worker : For example : “Everyone “who comes in the name of the Lord” is to be welcomed. But then examine him and you will find out – for you will have insight – what is true and what is false. 2 If the one who comes is merely passing through, assist him as much as you can. But he must not stay with you for more than two or, if necessary, three days. 3 However, if he wishes to settle among you and is a craftsman, let him work for his living. 4 But if he is not a craftsman, decide according to your own judgment how he shall live among you as a Christian, yet without being idle. But if he does not wish to cooperate in this way, then he is trading on Christ. Beware of such peopleDidache 12:1-5;

    6) JEWISH/CHRISTIAN PARALLELS

    The Didache finds multiple parallel teachings to the Qumranic literature (dead sea Scrolls). For example, the Didache begins with a line reminiscent of “the two ways scroll (known as 4Q473 Frag. 1) There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between the two ways.”. While this is a stock line in early Christian literature, it is also a stock doctrine to Dead Sea Jewish Literature. He is setting before you a blessing and a curse. These are two ways, one good and one evil. If you walk in the good way. He will bless you. But if you walk in the evil way, He will curse you in your going out and in your tents… THE TWO WAYS 4Q473 Frag. 1 If readers analyze the Book of Mormon, they will see at least a hundred references to good and evil equated with Light and Darkness (symbolizing the "two ways" that are in opposition to one another). Thus Moroni similarly summarizes similar stock symbolism when referring to the knowledge of the gospel that may be known "as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil..."

    The LDS will note distinct parallels to other Book of Mormon references that “almost” quote this same text and use similar symbolism.

    I’ve got to stop commenting here (I ran out of time). Some other quotes of interest include :

    If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect. But if you are not able, then do what you can.The Didache 6:2; The LDS concept that we all have differing abilities and differing capabilities but are all to offer our best efforts as the equalizing principle is reflected in such statements of principle.

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    #379 Clear, May 9, 2017
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  20. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    post two of two

    7) FAST OFFERINGS / DISTRIBUTION BY CHURCH LEADERSHIP / SHARING WITH OTHERS
    While I am relatively ignorant of Catholic "fast days", the LDS will see very, very close parallels to Fast offerings and other types of offerings in much of the Didachal text describing what is given to church leaders for distribution by church leadership.
    Every genuine prophet who wishes to settle among you “is worthy of his food” Likewise, every genuine teacher is, like” the worker, worthy of his food.” Take, therefore all the firstfruits of the produce of the wine press and threshing floor, and of the cattle and sheep, and give these firstfruits to the prophets, for they are your high priests. 4 But if you have no prophet, give them to the poor. 5 If you make bread, take the firstfruit and give in accordance with the commandment. 6 Similarly, when you open a jar of wine or oil, take the firstfruit and give it to the prophets. 7 As for money and clothes and any other possessions, take the “firstfruit” that seems right to you and give in accordance with the commandment.Didache 13:1-7; One is not to assume these things are "payments" to "prophets", but that the prophets and other leader serve to wisely distribute what is put into their charge.

    You shall not turn away from someone in need, but shall share everything with your brother, and not claim that anything is your own. For if you are sharers in what is imperishable, how much more so in perishable things!
    Didache 4:8;

    However, not everyone who speaks in the spirit is a prophet, but only if he exhibits the Lord’s ways. By his conduct, therefore, will the false prophet and the prophet be recognized.Didache 11:8;

    8) CHRISTIANITY WHICH IS MOST LIKE EARLY CHRISTIANITY CAN MOST EASILY USE EARLY CHRISTIAN TEXTS
    Such principles and quotes will often sound so familiar that like they will often cause a feeling of auditory "deja vu" to the LDS readers. I think the Catholic readers will also feel multiple parallels to the early texts. I do not think protestantism will be able to use much of the early doctrinal texts since their Christian movements are so dissimilar to the earliest Christian movement specifically relating to principles described by early texts such as the didache.

    Sorry I did not format better or offer more illuminating or better thought out commentary but I am short on time. See you two. Good Journey to you both.

    Clear
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    #380 Clear, May 10, 2017
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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