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Finding common ground

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Think of it this way, if you can. Imagine that I am aware of an upcoming concert that I am absolutely positive you would just love. You've never expressed any interest in the performer, and I know it's not even your favorite kind of music. Maybe you've even been critical of that kind of music in the past. I am so excited, though, about this concert that I go ahead and buy tickets for it and mail them, along with an engraved, personalized invitation to each and every individual (including you) that I truly care about and want to make sure has every conceivable opportunity to attend it. You get these tickets in the mail. You can choose to either throw them away and maybe not even tell me that you did, or you can decide to go to the concert. Either way, I've paid for the tickets as a gesture of good-will, and not because I think your own favorite genre of music is inferior. If I see you at the concert, I'll be happy, but if I don't, I'll know that I did make you the offer. And we can still be friends.

This reminds me of a Dharma talk I listened to awhile back. The nun was talking about attachments even to praise and awards. Religiously, the attachment prevents one from not being reborn but can be applied in general.

She says we are always giving gifts in light that the other person would be happy if we feel obligated to give a gift for whatever deed. Then when the gift (or tickets) aren't received with gratitude, we get upset.

Long story short: we give gifts with strings attached both positive (I give this to her because she will be happy) or negative (I give this to her so they can give for me in return)....

Sorry, anyway, the nun says the gift isn't for the other person, it's for yourself. The act of giving is the most important thing not the response from the giving. If we find ways not to be attached to whether we receive recognitions for the gifts we give (will the other uses those tickets or throw them away), we will not based our charity on other people's happiness but in the act of giving in and of itself.

Just thought of it.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
In terms of theology (nature of God and his relation to the world and humans), how much difference is there between Protestant Christianity and Mormonism?
I don't feel as if there is as much difference between us as Protestants seem to, because they're always telling me that I worship a "false God" and a "different Jesus" than they do. I would respond to that accusation like this: Most people I know who have been to Venice, Italy either love it or hate it. I've met few people who thought it was just "so-so." Those who hate it say, "It was such a crowded, ugly, stinky city, and the locals tried to rip of off every chance they got." Those who love it (me) would say, "It's a truly magical city! It's unlike anywhere else in the world, and in a good way. And the Italian people are just so warm and friendly!" Someone who has never been there might respond, "You guys are obviously talking about two entirely different cities." Well, no we're not. There is only one Venice (at least in Italy ;)) so we must be talking about exactly the same place, despite the fact that we have two diametrically opposed perceptions of it.

Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestantism all believe in the doctrine of the Trinity (although I believe there are some minor differences between how they understand this doctrine). Mormonism rejects that doctrine in favor of the Godhead. I'll let someone who believes in the Trinity explain it, as their understanding of it will undoubtedly be different and probably more objective than mine. Here is what we Latter-day Saints believe about the nature of God and His relationship to us:

Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God (the Father) in the flesh. While we believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning ("the beginning" being the time covered in the Bible). Under His Father's direction, He created "worlds without number." He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.

We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is. They both have bodies of flesh and bone (although, until His birth in Bethlehem, Jesus Christ was a spirit being only).

The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical substance or essence. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.

Most Christians also use the words "co-equal" and "co-eternal" to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an amoeba, however, is an inferior being to a human.

We see Jesus Christ as our "God" but not as our "Father in Heaven." We see Him as our elder Brother. We believe that He came to earth at His Father's bidding, taught a gospel of love, compassion and forgiveness, showed us how we should treat one another, and died in an atoning sacrifice for our sins, enabling us to be forgiven of them and reconciled to the Father. Finally, He rose from the dead, making death no longer a permanent state. We believe all of us (not just Mormons, but every one who has ever lived) are part of God's family and that He will do everything possible (with the exception of coercion) to reunite us, not only with Him, but with our family members to enjoy eternal happiness and progression. I should probably add that we see ourselves as part of the same "species" as God, but with far to go before we are fully developed. On the other hand, Jesus taught us that we should "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." We don't see that as something that is going to happen in this life, but neither do we believe that Jesus would have commanded us to do something that He knew was ultimately impossible.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
If you compare the theology of God between your religion and say, Protestant, Catholic and Islam... what similarities and difference jump out at you?
Hopefully, I answered a big part of this question in my last post (post #63, above). Even though our beliefs about God are undoubtedly more similar to those of other Christians than they are to the beliefs of Muslims, I firmly believe that they do worship the same God us we do -- and that they simply understand his attributes differently than we do.

I think that, in general, LDS theology is fairly positive with respect to its view of Islam. One now-deceased LDS leader once said that Muhammad and other nonbiblical religious leaders and philosophers, "received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations." This link, to an article entitled "Five Similarities Between Islam and the LDS Church and Why they Matter" is, I think a pretty good one.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I agree with Vinayaka that if common ground is to be sought it should preferably be on the practical sides of traditions and not on the doctrinal or theoretical side.

If I look at traditions to compare them with my own, I e.g. want to know what kind of spiritual practices such as meditation, prayers or collective types of devotion they perform, whether they do any kind of selfless service to people or animals in need, whether they are vegetarians, whether they take drugs such as alcohol, whether they treat people of different faiths different than people from their own tradition or not, etc., etc..
If they do selfless service to animals in need, they're okay by me!
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Man, @Katzpur answered all the questions for LDS folks five-star style, and I really don't have much more that can be added to such thorough answers.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't feel as if there is as much difference between us as Protestants seem to, because they're always telling me that I worship a "false God" and a "different Jesus" than they do. I would respond to that accusation like this: Most people I know who have been to Venice, Italy either love it or hate it. I've met few people who thought it was just "so-so." Those who hate it say, "It was such a crowded, ugly, stinky city, and the locals tried to rip of off every chance they got." Those who love it (me) would say, "It's a truly magical city! It's unlike anywhere else in the world, and in a good way. And the Italian people are just so warm and friendly!" Someone who has never been there might respond, "You guys are obviously talking about two entirely different cities." Well, no we're not. There is only one Venice (at least in Italy ;)) so we must be talking about exactly the same place, despite the fact that we have two diametrically opposed perceptions of it.

Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestantism all believe in the doctrine of the Trinity (although I believe there are some minor differences between how they understand this doctrine). Mormonism rejects that doctrine in favor of the Godhead. I'll let someone who believes in the Trinity explain it, as their understanding of it will undoubtedly be different and probably more objective than mine. Here is what we Latter-day Saints believe about the nature of God and His relationship to us:

Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God (the Father) in the flesh. While we believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning ("the beginning" being the time covered in the Bible). Under His Father's direction, He created "worlds without number." He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.

We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is. They both have bodies of flesh and bone (although, until His birth in Bethlehem, Jesus Christ was a spirit being only).

The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical substance or essence. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.

Most Christians also use the words "co-equal" and "co-eternal" to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an amoeba, however, is an inferior being to a human.

We see Jesus Christ as our "God" but not as our "Father in Heaven." We see Him as our elder Brother. We believe that He came to earth at His Father's bidding, taught a gospel of love, compassion and forgiveness, showed us how we should treat one another, and died in an atoning sacrifice for our sins, enabling us to be forgiven of them and reconciled to the Father. Finally, He rose from the dead, making death no longer a permanent state. We believe all of us (not just Mormons, but every one who has ever lived) are part of God's family and that He will do everything possible (with the exception of coercion) to reunite us, not only with Him, but with our family members to enjoy eternal happiness and progression. I should probably add that we see ourselves as part of the same "species" as God, but with far to go before we are fully developed. On the other hand, Jesus taught us that we should "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." We don't see that as something that is going to happen in this life, but neither do we believe that Jesus would have commanded us to do something that He knew was ultimately impossible.
This was useful. Thanks.

What is the difference between Jesus, angels and humans if they all are begotten by God and are the same species as God? Age of creation?
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
This was useful. Thanks.

What is the difference between Jesus, angels and humans if they all are begotten by God and are the same species as God? Age of creation?
God is God because He is Perfect.

I am not God because I am not perfect (FAR from it). A messenger is also not perfect and hence not God.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I suspect the most fundamentally common aspect of religions is the notion (in some form or other and invariably mistaken in my opinion) of salvation - the idea that there is something innately wrong with humans that we need to be "saved" or "healed" from before we reach the "blessed" condition that is/was meant for us.

I don't agree with this - but that does seem to be the common ground among the religions that I am aware of.
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
I suspect the most fundamentally common aspect of religions is the notion (in some form or other and invariably mistaken in my opinion) of salvation - the idea that there is something innately wrong with humans that we need to be "saved" or "healed" from before we reach the "blessed" condition that is/was meant for us.

I don't agree with this - but that does seem to be the common ground among the religions that I am aware of.
From the LDS perspective this ins't a "innately wrong" thing like you're cursed because of what Adam did (LDS 100% reject such a notion) I do do things wrong (like I'm can be so petty) but that's my own screwing up. God also helps me be more than I am as He is my Father and wants to guide me.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
So, yeah, water.

Ellen, there’s something in your posts that appeals to me a lot. Is there any place here, or elsewhere on the Internet, where you talk about your past and current efforts and progress in the path of God, or would be willing to?
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Ellen, there’s something in your posts that appeals to me a lot. Is there any place here, or elsewhere on the Internet, where you talk about your past and current efforts and progress in the path of God, or would be willing to?


We may PM if you like. I have told my story on here once and was pleasantly ignored. Usually, knowing it all ends any possibility of friendship.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
From the LDS perspective this ins't a "innately wrong" thing like you're cursed because of what Adam did (LDS 100% reject such a notion) I do do things wrong (like I'm can be so petty) but that's my own screwing up. God also helps me be more than I am as He is my Father and wants to guide me.
Yes - its dressed up slightly differently but its the same idea really - see this from the Book of Mormon for example (my bold):

And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

Mosiah 27:25-26​

I think whether we imagine the "salvation" to be a release from inherited sin, an aquittal from the sentence due to a "carnal and fallen state", a liberation from ignorance, a shedding of karma or an extinguishing of "self", the idea is essentially the same - "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50). The idea that there is a "better" or "more blessed" life that our very humanness prevents us from entering. It is a common theme.

Also, whether that "salvation" is got by grace, or faith, or works, or devotion, or thinking or unthinking, or knowledge or enlightenment, or grasping or letting go...or whatever...religions all seem to recommend a "path" of some kind by which to attain to "salvation". "You take the high road and I'll take the low road"...but the destination is pretty much the same - unity - although it is imagined very differently from one faith to another, but unity with the "greater reality" (aka God...etc.) is the ultimate goal.
 
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Jane.Doe

Active Member
Yes - its dressed up slightly differently but its the same idea really - see this from the Book of Mormon for example (my bold):

And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

Mosiah 27:25-26​

I think whether we imagine the "salvation" to be a release from inherited sin, an aquittal from the sentence due to a "carnal and fallen state", a liberation from ignorance, a shedding of karma or an extinguishing of "self", the idea is essentially the same - "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50). The idea that there is a "better" or "more blessed" life that our very humanness prevents us from entering. It is a common theme.
My carnality is because *I* screw up, I'm petty, I got a temper, etc. Not because someone else smeared me.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
My carnality is because *I* screw up, I'm petty, I got a temper, etc. Not because someone else smeared me.
Yes that's fine - I get the distinction between inherited sin and carnal foul ups - but in Mormon beliefs, is there anyone who doesn't stuff up their carnality now and again? Is there anyone who is not in need of the Saviour's grace?
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Yes that's fine - I get the distinction between inherited sin and carnal foul ups - but in Mormon beliefs, is there anyone who doesn't stuff up their carnality now and again? Is there anyone who is not in need of the Saviour's grace?
Unless you're Christ, every adult screws up sometime. A baby is innocent and can't sin because they don't understand.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Unless you're Christ, every adult screws up sometime.
Egg zackly! And that - assuming there aren't more sinister skeletons in our closets - is what prevents us (if it were not for the salvation of Christ) from "inheriting the Kingdom of God" - in the Mormon view - isn't it?
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Egg zackly! And that - assuming there aren't more sinister skeletons in our closets - is what prevents us (if it were not for the salvation of Christ) from "inheriting the Kingdom of God" - in the Mormon view - isn't it?
The fact that *I* screw up and walk away from God is what gets *me* being separated from God. Christ & His atonement are the way back.
 
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