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Fighting in Islam is not only for self defense.

stevecanuck

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Muslims frequently claim that the Qur'an requires them to fight, but only in self defense. However, that is simply and demonstrably not true, as hostilities are also explicitly commanded against those who commit only belief-based 'offenses'.

Verse 2:217 provides us with a convenient list of sins defined by the Arabic word 'fitna' for which violators must be attacked, and none of them have anything to do with preservation of life. It begins, "Sahih International: They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, 'Fighting therein is great [sin], but averting [people] from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and [preventing access to] al-Masjid al-haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater [evil] in the sight of Allah. And fitnah is greater than killing.'" The importance of the fact that "disbelief in Him" is included under the umbrella word 'fitna' can not be overstated as it pits Islam against the rest of the world for all time.

And the granddaddy of them all is verse 9:29 - "Sahih International: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
 
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Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fitna has more than one meaning. In the context of 2:217 it's referring to prosecution, it's saying being prosecuted and not fighting back and being forced to hide faith is worse then fighting back. The verse is saying fighting is the lesser evil in this scenario, but is also saying fighting is evil.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
9:29 shouldn't be seen in isolation. There are other verses for example, "if they incline to peace then incline to it." It's understood here it's saying the people of the book fighting you don't have faith in God or the last day. It's implicit it's referring to those who fought them or where part of coalition against Muslims.
 
stevecanuck

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Link said:
Fitna has more than one meaning.
Click to expand...

I covered that - "Verse 2:217 provides us with a convenient list of sins defined by the Arabic word 'fitna'".

Please don't junk this up with disingenuous deflections.

Link said:
In the context of 2:217 it's referring to prosecution, it's saying being prosecuted and not fighting back and being forced to hide faith is worse then fighting back.
Click to expand...

First, I'm going to assume you mean 'persecution', not 'prosecution'.

Second, that was sneaky and oh so disingenuous. Fighting back first requires being fought, and this verse is talking about actions that are worse than being fought. That was deceitful. I though you were better than that. Verse 2:191 says the same thing.


Link said:
The verse is saying fighting is the lesser evil in this scenario, but is also saying fighting is evil.
Click to expand...

I can't believe you think you can get away with this. It is NOT saying that fighting per se is evil, and you know it.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
stevecanuck said:
I covered that - "Verse 2:217 provides us with a convenient list of sins defined by the Arabic word 'fitna'".

Please don't junk this up with disingenuous deflections.



First, I'm going to assume you mean 'persecution', not 'prosecution'.

Second, that was sneaky and oh so disingenuous. Fighting back first requires being fought, and this verse is talking about actions that are worse than being fought. That was deceitful. I though you were better than that. Verse 2:191 says the same thing.




I can't believe you think you can get away with this. It is NOT saying that fighting per se is evil, and you know it.
Click to expand...
Salam

They can do Taqiya and pretend they are not Muslims. The Quran is saying that persecution is worse but rather religion should be for the sake of God and to keep fighting till people are allowed to practice their faith.

So being forced to pretend you are polytheists is worse in God’s eyes then fighting back till the religion is for God.
 
stevecanuck

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Link said:
9:29 shouldn't be seen in isolation. There are other verses for example, "if they incline to peace then incline to it." It's understood here it's saying the people of the book fighting you don't have faith in God or the last day. It's implicit it's referring to those who fought them or where part of coalition against Muslims.
Click to expand...

You just read in what you want. It implies nothing of the sort.
 
InvestigateTruth

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
stevecanuck said:
Muslims frequently claim that the Qur'an requires them to fight, but only in self defense. However, that is simply and demonstrably not true, as hostilities are also explicitly commanded against those who commit only belief-based 'offenses'.

Verse 2:217 provides us with a convenient list of sins defined by the Arabic word 'fitna' for which violators must be attacked, and none of them have anything to do with preservation of life. It begins, "Sahih International: They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, 'Fighting therein is great [sin], but averting [people] from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and [preventing access to] al-Masjid al-haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater [evil] in the sight of Allah. And fitnah is greater than killing.'" The importance of the fact that "disbelief in Him" is included under the umbrella word 'fitna' can not be overstated as it pits Islam against the rest of the world for all time.

And the granddaddy of them all is verse 9:29 - "Sahih International: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Click to expand...

Laws of Quran were given for an older times. These Laws are not for our time.

"....For each period is a Book (revealed)" 13:38
 
InvestigateTruth

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
stevecanuck said:
When did the Qur'an expire, and why did 1.6 billion people not get the memo?
Click to expand...

Before answering this, I like to mention that, not everything in Quran is mentioned explicitly, but certain things are mentioned with allusions:

There is a statement made by the Imam, Jafar Sadiq (d. 765 CE):[10]

"The book of God comprises four things: the statement set down, the allusions, the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world, and the exalted spiritual doctrines. The literal statement is for the ordinary believers. The allusions are the concern of the elite. The hidden meanings pertain to the friends of God. The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets."

Esoteric interpretation of the Quran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


Having said that, I will show, where in Quran the expiration time is given, with allusions. Again, I emphasize that, these verses are allusions, and only if one carefully, think about these verses, will understand the intention:


"The Night of Decree is better than a thousand months. The angels come forth and the Spirit during it with their Lord’s permission, with every command. Peace! until the rising of the dawn " 97:3-5

My comment: verses 97:3-5, is talking about how from early Islam, the commands of God, were given to humanity, through the Spirit and Angels. I explain later, what "rising of the dawn" means.

Now, there is another verse, which is saying the same thing about God givng command, but also, how after a certain perdiod, the command goes back to Him, meaning, He takes them back.

Just, think about it, as if the King, has given a command, and later, after a certain period, that command returns to Himself, meaning, at that time, He will decide on a new command:

"He directs the command from the heaven to the earth; then it ascends toward Him in a day whose span is a thousand years by your reckoning" 32:5

My comment: Once the commands in Islam are given during the period of Decree, then, 1000 years after that, it goes upto God! The Period of Decree, started by Revelations of Quran, and then continued through the Imams. Meaning, after Muhammad left, the Imams, were the appointed leaders, and through them, the Muslims received farther directions. Their 11th one, Imam Askari, was martyred in the year 260 AH. Thus, by passing the 11th Imam, the Command was completed, and the period of Decree was over. After this, then, when 1000 years, is passed, and we come to the year 1260 AH, it was time, for the Command to ascend To God. This "Ascension", is an allusion, that the command to Leave the earth to God.

Now, I will explain the last part of the verses "rising the dawn".
It means, once 1000 years, is passed, and in the year 1260 AH, then, it is time for a new Light. It is time, for the next Book from God, through the Qaim.
 
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stevecanuck

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
muhammad_isa said:
People will interpret prose in such a manner as they see fit.
People can also ask scholars their opinion.

It would seem that you rely purely on hearsay.
eg. opinions from anti-Islam websites
Click to expand...

When you have exactly zero in the way of rebuttal you post the above ad hom.
 
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