Fellow Christians: I Don't Think I Really Understand The Trinity

[Mister Emu]

Thanks Katzpur I look forward to seeing them.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks Katzpur I look forward to seeing them.

I finally got my scanner!

Here are the pictures I promised you. Some of them scanned a little more clearly than others. As I explained before, this art came from the period prior to and immediately following the time the Nicene Creed came into being. Initially, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are depicted as being three physically distinct beings. The later pictures show them as a single three-faced or three-headed person.

 

[ChristineES]

Wow! Thanks for posting those, Katzpur.

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

This thread is the Same Faiths Debates sub forum of Religious Debates.
Since the title of this thread begins with "Fellow Christians", that means that is was intended as a debate between members who identify themselves as Christians.

What that means is that if you don't consider yourself a Christian,
Don't post here.



​

 

[tripleog2010]

Before I became a Baptist, I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses with a family (I haven't seen them in more than 25 years but my mom ran into them a while ago and I found they are no longer JWs). Because of this and the fact I wasn't raised in a Christian home, I think I am at a disadvantage of understanding the Trinity. I am hoping that some of you can explain it to me. I was told that the way I understood the Trinity was actually Modalism (The water, ice, and steam example I used to use).

The best reason for the belief is in the First Epistle of John 5:5-7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." KJV You many notice that if you have the modern versions of the Bible, this verse is left out and I think the JWs version also has this removed. Having said that, the KJV isn't as good as the Geneva Bible in my opinion. That's your best evidence for the existence of the doctrine, and assuming it is true, trying to explain it is like asking how did God create everything. I have no idea as to how the "trinity" doctrine is supposed to work, but it is there. I think of it as different aspects of the same God.
We know there cannot be three gods because there is only one God. While I don't really know everything there is to know about this subject, I do know that the Bible teaches it.

Jesus Christ is rendered in the Bible as God in the flesh. So all are different aspects of the same God. That's how I understand it.

 

[kylixguru]

Jesus Christ is rendered in the Bible as God in the flesh. So all are different aspects of the same God. That's how I understand it.

So do you look for future advents of Christ to also be in the flesh? Just as God has an advent of the Son, do you anticipate there shall be advents of the Holy Ghost and the Father too?

 

[Mister Emu]

Sorry it took me so long to respond... I kind of forgot about the thread...

As I explained before, this art came from the period prior to and immediately following the time the Nicene Creed came into being.

I am fairly certain at least two of those pictures on the right side(first two left to right and up to down) are from the Late Middle Ages.

Granted, I can't find the sources, but I believe that such depictions were banned by one of the Popes... if that is worth anything

Similarly, the bottom picture on the left comes from the Hortus Deliciarum, a 12th century work.

 

[thedope]

The best metaphor is a man who is a father, son, and brother. He has very different roles but is always the same person.

This is wonderful as it consistent with the familial arrangement of a sonship, a collection of the children of creation, an inheritable kingdom.

I think the trinity is a concept most usefully coinciding with a process of creation. God the logos or reason that becomes the word, the holy spirit, the quantum communication or articulation between the absolute and the manifest, leaving the son as the terminus of a ray of creation noted as, conception or thought, word, and deed. Less and more than a theism of any type, a metaphysical axiom. By metaphysical I mean of the "essential nature of reality".

Of course we have the admonition against this kind of esoteric consideration to canonized materials. I personally however, have no other recourse. If your beliefs strain credulity they are not credible. While excess sodium is no good for health, there is an appropriate daily dietary requirement.

 

[confusedius]

As a former JW, I can only thank that faith for giving me a belief regarding the Trinity that is not at odds with my rational thought...

james

 

[Katzpur]

As a former JW, I can only thank that faith for giving me a belief regarding the Trinity that is not at odds with my rational thought...

james

Then maybe you can explain it to those of us for whom it is entirely rational to think that three are one and one is three, and yet one is not three and three are not one.

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry it took me so long to respond... I kind of forgot about the thread...


I am fairly certain at least two of those pictures on the right side(first two left to right and up to down) are from the Late Middle Ages.

Granted, I can't find the sources, but I believe that such depictions were banned by one of the Popes... if that is worth anything

Similarly, the bottom picture on the left comes from the Hortus Deliciarum, a 12th century work.

If that is indeed the case, I stand corrected.

 

[jtartar]

Before I became a Baptist, I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses with a family (I haven't seen them in more than 25 years but my mom ran into them a while ago and I found they are no longer JWs). Because of this and the fact I wasn't raised in a Christian home, I think I am at a disadvantage of understanding the Trinity. I am hoping that some of you can explain it to me. I was told that the way I understood the Trinity was actually Modalism (The water, ice, and steam example I used to use).

ChristineES,
There is not one person on earth that can clearly explain the trinity. Therefore it is garbage, untrue, a Blasphemy, both to Jesus and to God The ALMIGHTY.
Consider what the Bible says about religious things, at Luke 10:21. Jesus said that he publicly praises his Father in heaven, because He has carefully hidden these things from the WISE and INTELLECTUAL ONES, and has revealed them to babes.
What does that say when even the wise and intellectual ones cannot even adaquately explain one of their foundation beliefs.
When Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman at the well, she said something telling, at John 4:25, She said when the Messiah comes he will explain all things OPENLY. Jesus never taught things had to understand, and Paul said the same at 1Cor 2:1-5.
One very funny truth is: If a young child could not even know what it means for something to be GREATER than something else, would we pass them from the forst grade to the second??? The great religious leaders cannot understand this simple concept, Consider John 14:28, where Jesus says that the Father is GREATER than I am.
The great religious leaders today cannot tell you how God and Jesus is the same when God was in heaven and Jesus on earth, Matt 3:17.
They cannot tell you why Jesus prayed fervently to a god,if he was really that God, Matt 26:39, Luke 22:41-44, Heb 5:7.
Religious leaders cannot explain how the same person does not know what he knows, Matt 24:36.
How does the same person come before one who is sitting on a throne, and also be the one on the throne, Dan 7:13,14, Rev 5:6-8
I wonder why Jesus said that the Father in heaven was his Father and our father and his God and our God. Jesus was not very understanding was he, Jesus did not even know that he was really God.
Think about Matt 16:13-17, and remember that Jesus NEVER said deceptive things, 1Pet 2:21,22. God hates deception, Prov 3:32, 6:16-19.

 

[Mister Emu]

If that is indeed the case, I stand corrected.

I'll try to find the sources for the Pope condemning the depictions...

As for the pictures... starting with the two larger tricephalous images at the top... need to find the second one again...
http://aras.org/galleryimage.aspx?key=tricephalous

And the picture with the ribbon, from the Hortus Deliciarum... about two thirds of the way down
The Hortus Deliciarum

 

[confusedius]

ChristineES,
There is not one person on earth that can clearly explain the trinity. Therefore it is garbage, untrue, a Blasphemy, both to Jesus and to God The ALMIGHTY.
Consider what the Bible says about religious things, at Luke 10:21. Jesus said that he publicly praises his Father in heaven, because He has carefully hidden these things from the WISE and INTELLECTUAL ONES, and has revealed them to babes.
What does that say when even the wise and intellectual ones cannot even adaquately explain one of their foundation beliefs.
When Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman at the well, she said something telling, at John 4:25, She said when the Messiah comes he will explain all things OPENLY. Jesus never taught things had to understand, and Paul said the same at 1Cor 2:1-5.
One very funny truth is: If a young child could not even know what it means for something to be GREATER than something else, would we pass them from the forst grade to the second??? The great religious leaders cannot understand this simple concept, Consider John 14:28, where Jesus says that the Father is GREATER than I am.
The great religious leaders today cannot tell you how God and Jesus is the same when God was in heaven and Jesus on earth, Matt 3:17.
They cannot tell you why Jesus prayed fervently to a god,if he was really that God, Matt 26:39, Luke 22:41-44, Heb 5:7.
Religious leaders cannot explain how the same person does not know what he knows, Matt 24:36.
How does the same person come before one who is sitting on a throne, and also be the one on the throne, Dan 7:13,14, Rev 5:6-8
I wonder why Jesus said that the Father in heaven was his Father and our father and his God and our God. Jesus was not very understanding was he, Jesus did not even know that he was really God.
Think about Matt 16:13-17, and remember that Jesus NEVER said deceptive things, 1Pet 2:21,22. God hates deception, Prov 3:32, 6:16-19.

I've kept quiet in the spirit of the OP, but could not agree with you more!

 

[obi one]

Pore soul, my heart really hurts for you. don't feel bad fellow since none of the authors of the New Testament ever heard of the Trinity either and especially Paul and Peter. I guess that is because they used the King James version of the Bible.

Here is a short excerpt written about the political background of the Trinity doctrine:
When Was The Trinity Invented? Kris (FAQ) (7-01)
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To settle ideological disputes in the Church, Constantine introduced and presided over the first ecumenical council at Nicea in 325. In his book The Heretics, Walter Nigg describes the means of reaching a consensus: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Constantine, who treated religious questions solely from a political point of view, assured unanimity by banishing all the bishops who would not sign the new profession of faith. In this way unity was achieved. 'It was altogether unheard-of that a universal creed should be instituted solely on the authority of the emperor, who as a catechumen was not even admitted to the mystery of the Eucharist and was totally unempowered to rule on the highest mysteries of the faith. Not a single bishop said a single word against this monstrous thing.[/FONT]

 

[Katzpur]

Here is a short excerpt written about the political background of the Trinity doctrine:
When Was The Trinity Invented? Kris (FAQ) (7-01)
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To settle ideological disputes in the Church, Constantine introduced and presided over the first ecumenical council at Nicea in 325. In his book The Heretics, Walter Nigg describes the means of reaching a consensus: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Constantine, who treated religious questions solely from a political point of view, assured unanimity by banishing all the bishops who would not sign the new profession of faith. In this way unity was achieved. 'It was altogether unheard-of that a universal creed should be instituted solely on the authority of the emperor, who as a catechumen was not even admitted to the mystery of the Eucharist and was totally unempowered to rule on the highest mysteries of the faith. Not a single bishop said a single word against this monstrous thing.[/FONT]

That's absolutely right. :yes: Did you, by chance read this post?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Some of you might have noticed I have been trying to work my way into the mindset of those using the Didiche in the mid first century.
It was used to train Gentiles in to the Jesus movement of the Judo- Christians.

It emphasises the worship of God and the teaching and example of Jesus. There is no concept of the trinity.

However "IT SAYS" ...

Concerning Baptism, baptise thus
Having said all these things beforehand,
immerse in the name of the Father
and of the Son
and of the holy Spirit
in flowing water....

It makes no attempt anywhere to link these three as "one god". In fact, except for the above instance it does not mention them together at all.
I am becoming convinced that that the Nicene concept is wrong. And that a Unitarian view of God is correct. with Jesus as his Son and the Holy Spirit as the comforter.
There is no need to define their relationship further.

 

[obi one]

That's absolutely right. :yes: Did you, by chance read this post?

The Roman Church's Trinity concept is described in the Athanasian Creed, a creed dedicated to Athanasius, who was a Nicene Council participant, and a main stay in the support of the Trinity Doctrine. This is just one of the inputs of the Roman Church and Athansius. Another of his inputs was the canon of the "Christian" bible, for he was the initiator of the current cannon in 367 A.D..

It was the power of Roman Church/State which established the current canon. Although the Roman Church/State has proven to be corrupted, the "Christian" churches of today still hold on to the canon as being infallible. The Trinity doctrine and the canon, were both established through the power of the Roman church/state. And you wonder why it seems that the the churches have no understanding. They added the tares with the good seed, which actually was part of the plan, but now they simply scratch their heads as to the meaning of everything.

 

[sojourner]

There is not one person on earth that can clearly explain the trinity. Therefore it is garbage, untrue, a Blasphemy, both to Jesus and to God The ALMIGHTY.

We can't clearly explain God, either. I guess on that basis, then, God is also garbage, untrue, and a blasphemy...

Consider what the Bible says about religious things, at Luke 10:21. Jesus said that he publicly praises his Father in heaven, because He has carefully hidden these things from the WISE and INTELLECTUAL ONES, and has revealed them to babes.

A babe would accept the Trinity without question or analysis. It's when we try to overanalyze it as adults that we get into trouble.

 

[sojourner]

The Roman Church's Trinity concept is described in the Athanasian Creed, a creed dedicated to Athanasius, who was a Nicene Council participant, and a main stay in the support of the Trinity Doctrine. This is just one of the inputs of the Roman Church and Athansius. Another of his inputs was the canon of the "Christian" bible, for he was the initiator of the current cannon in 367 A.D..

It was the power of Roman Church/State which established the current canon. Although the Roman Church/State has proven to be corrupted, the "Christian" churches of today still hold on to the canon as being infallible. The Trinity doctrine and the canon, were both established through the power of the Roman church/state. And you wonder why it seems that the the churches have no understanding. They added the tares with the good seed, which actually was part of the plan, but now they simply scratch their heads as to the meaning of everything.

At the time of Constantine, the seat of power wasn't Rome -- it was Constantinople. Therefore, it's not the Roman power that established the canon and the Trinity doctrine, begun in Nicea, but the church's power.