Fate

[fromthe heart]

I think fate is the end result of an action...not necessairly one of our making. I believe nothing happens in the whole of the world without reason...not that we will know the reason at that given moment.

 

[Fluffy]

I think fate is the end result of an action...not necessairly one of our making.

If fate is the end result of an action then doesnt any action result in fate? Therefore if we make an action it MUST end in fate. Sorry to nitpick but Im just a little confused .

 

[Ceridwen018]

For me free will is vital to my sanity... I cannot imagine how pointless the world would be if we did not have it (ironic I know because fate normally implies purpose... yet it doesnt in this sense). Yet this theory proves, for me, that we don't have such a thing. Does the idea of having no free will not distress you, Ceridwen?

It doesn't distress me in the least, and I don't see why it should. The only reason I can think of for why a lack of free-will would be distressing, would be for someone who is religious. The lack of free-will for a religious person creates a ton of problems in their theories of god and his nature, etc. For someone who doesn't believe in god, such as myself, it really makes no difference. If anything, it only helps to affirm my large suspicion that god does not exist, and that we are merely bound by the natural and physical world.

I am very curious--why does it distress you so, Fluffy?

 

[Bastet]

I believe in Fate: it's a really good fly spray, and it smells like toothpaste.

 

[EightyOne]

If you were to toss a coin in order to acheive either heads or tails, the result could theoretically be pre-determined by applying the principles of physics, etc.

But you have the choice to toss the coin, and that action of flipping the coin could not be considered to be predestined.

 

[Fluffy]

But you have the choice to toss the coin, and that action of flipping the coin could not be considered to be predestined.

The act of you flipping the coin is determined by everything that has happened to you in life up to that point. It is determined by the chemical messages in your brain and how fast they get to certain areas. There is no chance here. Just because the processes are so tiny and intricate that we cannot see how they affect a decision does not mean that they arent there. The fact is that the processes that bring about a decision in our heads happen long before we actually make that decision.

I am very curious--why does it distress you so, Fluffy?

I guess it distresses me for 3 reasons.

The first would be because this idea of fate shows that everything has no purpose. It is totally random yet predetermined. If there is no reason for anything in life then I cannot logically say why things such as morality should exist.
The second would be because I feel like I have lost all control over my life. Everything that I do is because of other people and other things. The input which I have into anything is exactly zero since it is just an amalgamation of everyone elses actions.
The third would be because I think the idea of fate removes the need for things such as guilt. If I was destined to murder somebody then there was absolutly no way I could do otherwise. Therefore it shouldnt be my fault since if fate had not existed I might have tried to do something else. I was forced into the murder and therefore I should not be punished, nor should I feel guilty.

These things just seem so integral to my, very dreamy, way of life that I would hate for them to be true. And so I find myself in almost a state of denial over this issue hoping that it is not the case.

 

[may]

DOES​

THE BIBLE ENCOURAGE BELIEF IN FATE?


​

No, it does not. Rather than indicate that each person has a predestined day of death, the Bible says that "time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all." (Eccl. 9:11) Yes, an "unforeseen occurrence" can happen to anyone. If a person happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, he may meet a fatal accident. It was not that this was his predestined "time," but something occurred "unforeseen" or by chance.

 

[Fluffy]

Don't forget the age old argument of God's omniscience preventing free will and thereby creating fate in one form or another. The unforeseen occurrence which you refer to is only unseen by man. To an outsider, such as God, it is not unseen and therefore predetermined.

 

[fromthe heart]

If fate is the end result of an action then doesnt any action result in fate? Therefore if we make an action it MUST end in fate. Sorry to nitpick but Im just a little confused .

Every action leads to our fatefull outcome. We can choose which way to go but fate in something is the outcome or end result of an action we take...sort of like logical consequenses. Haven't you ever heard of somone meeting their fate. Things aren't of our choosing in all things.

 

[Sunstone]

Is the concept of fate just a conveinent way for us to excuse to ourselves how things beyond our control that nevertheless matter to us might happen to us?

 

[fromthe heart]

Is the concept of fate just a conveinent way for us to excuse to ourselves how things beyond our control that nevertheless matter to us might happen to us?

No I don't feel fate can be used as an excuse...we are responsible for our actions to most degrees. Fate has about 7 different meanings. To speak of a power that predetermines ones lifes situations to me is still made up of choices. If we choose one path it leads one way to one fate...if we choose another path it leads to yet another fate. If you murder you have sealed your fate to being punished by possibly death or a life sentence of being locked away from the rest of civalization. Fate IS the result or consequence of ones own actions...you have to have ownership of it.

Personally I don't think anything is just coincidental. I believe personally that God determines my outcomes or my fate...but I choose the path in which I walk to that outcome.

 

[Fluffy]

If I am murdered then this is not necessarily a fate caused by my own actions. It is caused by someone else. Fate is the result of ALL actions, not just your own.

 

[fromthe heart]

If I am murdered then this is not necessarily a fate caused by my own actions. It is caused by someone else. Fate is the result of ALL actions, not just your own.

Hi Fluffy...I'm not sure what you mean...if you were a murderer you didn't do that yourself? You can't blame your own doings on someone else....correct? I'm probably not understanding you...how can your fate be the result of someone elses actions?

 

[Zionic86]

fate: a gun was invented because given the setup of the earth, we had the means to make a gun, therefore it was made.

fate is not: Bob is sitting at home, fate cannot say that bob will go out to eat and order a salad instead of fries. thats an at the brink of the moment decision coming from an individual concious. Thats why souls are precious, unlike inanimacies, fate cannot effect our decisions.

 

[EightyOne]

The act of you flipping the coin is determined by everything that has happened to you in life up to that point.

How do you know this? What specific events would force me to flip a coin?

It is determined by the chemical messages in your brain and how fast they get to certain areas.

What specific chemical messages? How do these chemicals react with my mind in such a way that they force me to flip a coin?

 

[Sunstone]

What specific chemical messages? How do these chemicals react with my mind in such a way that they force me to flip a coin?

I realize that this is partly off topic, but before we get any further, it might help to clarify how neurochemicals opperate in the broadest sense.

Perhaps the best way of explaining the effects of neurochemicals on the human brain is to consider the effects of alcohol on the human brain. That's because of two things: (1) the effects of alcohol are well known to most people, and (2) alcohol works on the brain in basically the same way that neurochemicals do. Alcohol changes both a person's mood and their thinking. And neurochemicals change both a person's mood and their thinking.

There is no neutral state of human consciousnes. At any given moment, our mood and thinking is being in part determined by a number of neurochemicals opperating on us. We are never free of these influences. Never.

So, all the mechanisms that determine thought and mood are not entirely known, but the more we learn, the more we learn that there are indeed mechanisms which determine both thought and mood.

I hope that helps.

 

[EightyOne]

At any given moment, our mood and thinking is being in part determined by a number of neurochemicals opperating on us. We are never free of these influences. Never.

Okay, that is a good explanation. However, even though something as broad as our general mood may be highly influenced by these chemicals, is it fair to say that even our smallest and most specific actions are completely under the control of these chemicals - regardless of how trivial these actions may seem?

 

[Sunstone]

Okay, that is a good explanation. However, even though something as broad as our general mood may be highly influenced by these chemicals, is it fair to say that even our smallest and most specific actions are completely under the control of these chemicals - regardless of how trivial these actions may seem?

That's a tough question. What makes it tough is that every year -- indeed, every month -- brings with it news from neuroscience that yet another "brain pathway" for yet another psychological function has been discovered. So, the trend is to find out that more and more psychological functions are associated with concrete neurons and neurochemicals. On the other hand, our knowledge of these things is only in the early stages, and without complete knowledge how can we ever say that ALL actions and behaviors are completely under the control of these things?

 

[Ceridwen018]

Okay, that is a good explanation. However, even though something as broad as our general mood may be highly influenced by these chemicals, is it fair to say that even our smallest and most specific actions are completely under the control of these chemicals - regardless of how trivial these actions may seem?

Yes, it is. Every single action performed by our brains, be it the involuntary churning of our stomachs, to the making of a seemingly insignificant decision, such as whether or not to flip a coin, is determined by neurological firings and chemical reactions within our brains. That is how the brain functions, after all. If you think more on it, you will realize that it doesn't make any sense for larger actions of the brain to be carried out in a different manner and process than smaller ones.

To be more specific, there are variations in cerebral processes between different sorts of actions that the brain has to carry out, however, there are only so many 'materials' within the brain, and no matter what the process, every action is confined by the limits of these materials.

 

[Ceridwen018]

I guess it distresses me for 3 reasons.

The first would be because this idea of fate shows that everything has no purpose. It is totally random yet predetermined. If there is no reason for anything in life then I cannot logically say why things such as morality should exist.
The second would be because I feel like I have lost all control over my life. Everything that I do is because of other people and other things. The input which I have into anything is exactly zero since it is just an amalgamation of everyone elses actions.
The third would be because I think the idea of fate removes the need for things such as guilt. If I was destined to murder somebody then there was absolutly no way I could do otherwise. Therefore it shouldnt be my fault since if fate had not existed I might have tried to do something else. I was forced into the murder and therefore I should not be punished, nor should I feel guilty.

These things just seem so integral to my, very dreamy, way of life that I would hate for them to be true. And so I find myself in almost a state of denial over this issue hoping that it is not the case.

1. Actually, it is fate that gives us purpose. I hope I'm not stepping on toes by stating that the general definition of 'fate' amongst most people here, is a predetermined blueprint for our lives, most likely formulated by a higher being/ oversoul/ supernatural idea. By having a pre-planned itinerary for our lives, we have purpose because there are things that we are supposed to accomplish, though we may not know what they are...yet. By rejecting this idea of fate, you are also rejecting purpose, because you are saying that there is nothing specific that you have to do in your lifetime.

2. I think I kind of understand what you're saying here. What happens to you, and the decisions you make, are affected and influenced by your environment and other people around you. I agree with this, however I disagree that your input is 'zero'. The way that your brain functions and processes information, influences all of those outside affects that enter it making them your own. Also, if other people affect you, you can be sure that you affect them. You have just as much input as everyone else, whether you realize it or not.

3. Is this why you like fate? Because you can rely on it by saying, 'everything happens for a reason--its all part of the plan,' during hard times, and because it does, technically, erase guilt?