Faith

[Aupmanyav]

So people insisting on proof of God or such are ignorant of the fact that this knowledge or proof or consciousness cannot be given to those who have not earned it.

And how do I earn it? Does it mean that I first accept the existence of God or Gods and then you would provide the evidence?

That is a very funny. I say I will believe when I see evidence. You say, believe before you give evidence. If I start believing then I have no need for a proof. IMHO, you are just making excuses, and you don't have any proof whatsoever.

True. You have to have faith that your practice will yield results, otherwise why practice?

Buddha said to Kalamas, "You first try and see if it is beneficial. If it is, then accept it'. There was no question of faith.

 

[QuestioningMind]

And how do I earn it? Does it mean that I first accept the existence of God or Gods and then you would provide the evidence?

That is a very funny. I say I will believe when I see evidence. You say, believe before you give evidence. If I start believing then I have no need for a proof. IMHO, you are just making excuses, and you don't have any proof whatsoever.Buddha said to Klams, "You first try and see if it is beneficial. If it is, then accept it'. There was no question of faith.

Please read my entire quote. The part that you posted above is where I was quoting what loverofhumanity wrote. If you take the time to read my response you'll see that I basically told loverofhumanity the same thing and agree that accepting the existence of any god prior to having verifiable proof is ridiculous.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I asked what God said, and you refered me to the Book of Matthew.

I want to Know What God says, not what Matthew claims he says.

God has asked us to consider this;

"O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."

(The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 1)

"O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

(The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 2)

Thus it is you that must ask and you that must meditate upon the reply.

Regards Tony

 

[Hawkins]

Faith is primary necessity for a truth to convey among humans.

To convey a truth, the sender needs to breach while the receiver needs faith to believe.

We know for a fact that black holes exist (it's already about a science, not to mention other kinds of truth), not because black holes are evident to us. We know for a fact that black holes exist simply because our scientists are a credible and reliable source of information for us to put faith in to get to a scientific truth (the existence of black holes in this case).

"Faith in credible source" is the way how humans in majority get to a truth of any kind. If CNN doesn't broadcast (same effect as preaching), facts won't convey. If you don't put in faith in their credibility, you won't get to the facts. Reporters are the gatherers of stories ultimately from eyewitnesses accounts and for the rest of human kind to believe with faith!

That's how a true conveys!

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem with faith is that it's completely personal and can't objectively be verified through others. Self-verification is absolutely worthless, since a person's personal biases can easily cause them to fabricate 'evidence' within their own mind for whatever 'answer' they deep down ultimately hope to 'find'. The 9/11 terrorists started off with a belief that God wanted them to kill people and low and behold after great internal searching they found enough 'evidence' to have such powerful certitude that they willingly sacrificed their lives to fulfill this belief.

We have to have faith that God exists since God is not verifiable...
All we have for evidence that God exists is what God provides...
All that God provides are the Messengers of God to whom God communicates...

Thus, the logical thing to do is to try to determine if the claim of the Messenger is true, that He indeed received communication from God. We can never prove that but we can verify it to our own satisfaction with the evidence the Messenger provides and from other evidence that surrounds His Revelation. We have to determine that ourselves because otherwise we would be believing according to someone else’s determination, and it would not be our own belief. It would be their belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please read my entire quote. The part that you posted above is where I was quoting what loverofhumanity wrote. If you take the time to read my response you'll see that I basically told loverofhumanity the same thing and agree that accepting the existence of any god prior to having verifiable proof is ridiculous.

Then I guess you will never believe in God, at least not in this earthly life, because there will never be verifiable evidence for God, sinceGod is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. The Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and can never be known except through Messengers of God who manifest God and reveal God’s attributes and God’s will.

Even after you die, you will not be able to verify God’s existence, but those who believed in God in this life will have their beliefs confirmed by feeling God’s Presence and hearing His Voice. I am not sure what happens to atheists in the afterlife, there are varying ideas and accounts.

One thing is clear though; it is better if we believe in God before we die, which is no doubt why the importance of belief is stressed in all the world religions. God wants us to believe in Him for our own benefit, not for His benefit; God does not need our belief because God has no needs.

 

[Ajarn]

True. You have to have faith that your practice will yield results, otherwise why practice?

We know the practice yields results, that is common knowledge.

We dont know that God exists.

I dont need faith to know going to the gym will get me fit, i have seen it with my own eyes.

 

[Ajarn]

Then I guess you will never believe in God, at least not in this earthly life, because there will never be verifiable evidence for GodsinceGod is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. The Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and can never be known except through Messengers of God who manifest God and reveal God’s attributes and God’s will.

Even after you die, you will not be able to verify God’s existence, but those who believed in God in this life will have their beliefs confirmed by feeling God’s Presence and hearing His Voice. I am not sure what happens to atheists in the afterlife, there are varying ideas and accounts.

One thing is clear though; it is better if we believe in God before we die, which is no doubt why the importance of belief is stressed in all the world religions. God wants us to believe in Him for our own benefit, not for His benefit; God does not need our belief because God has no needs.

If God wants us to believe in him why doesnt he do something about it.

 

[Ajarn]

God has asked us to consider this;

"O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."

(The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 1)

"O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

(The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 2)

Thus it is you that must ask and you that must meditate upon the reply.

Regards Tony

No.

Absolutly not what God said, this is what a man claims God said.

until God comes down and says it why would i believe it.

It may be God spoke to this man, it may be the man was mental, or the story was simply made up.

There is no way to know, and no one can show me even the remotest piece of evidence he exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God wants us to believe in him why doesnt he do something about it.

God has done something, now we have to do something.

 

[crossfire]

We know the practice yields results, that is common knowledge.

We dont know that God exists.

I dont need faith to know going to the gym will get me fit, i have seen it with my own eyes.

Actually the belief that going to the gym will make you fit is faith based: you don't know if you will become fit or if you will injure yourself. If the idea of injuring yourself at the gym doesn't even enter your mind, then you have faith in both the safety of the equipment and faith in your own good sense to not injure yourself. (Is it good sense to have faith in someone who doesn't consider both sides of possibilities?)

Edit to add: in case you were wondering, I'm transtheistic: I don't find the notion of theism/atheism very useful, as it clouds and prejudices such concepts as faith. Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[crossfire]

.Buddha said to Klams, "You first try and see if it is beneficial. If it is, then accept it'. There was no question of faith.

Actually, Buddha said accept teachings that lead to a lack of greed, hatred, or delusion as beneficial, and reject teachings that preach greed, hatred, or delusion as harmful, no matter how much pretzel logic they use to try to justify it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."
"O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, .. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness."

Tony, I am a non-believer, a strong atheist (do not even consider it possible for an entity like God to exist). Anyone who takes recourse to the existence of God and bases his/her authority upon it is an absolute liar. So what you write is gibberish for me, 'shabda-jaala', maze of words. If one has commonsense, one does not need a word from God. These things are necessary for existence of any society in peace. The evolution of society has created these rules. They exist even in animal societies in some form or the other. God's loving kindness is indicated by existence of pain, sorrow, diseases and cruelty in humans.

"Faith in credible source" is the way how humans in majority get to a truth of any kind. If CNN doesn't broadcast (same effect as preaching), facts won't convey. If you don't put in faith in their credibility, you won't get to the facts.

What makes one a credible source without any evidence to support them? No, I do not give CNN or BBC any credibility whatsoever unless what they say is confirmed by other sources too.

Even after you die, you will not be able to verify God’s existence, but those who believed in God in this life will have their beliefs confirmed by feeling God’s Presence and hearing His Voice. God does not need our belief because God has no needs.

When we die, it is disintegration. There is no after. It is the desire and fear of 'after' which causes us to believe untruth. Knowing this, just like God, I have no need of a belief.

God has done something, now we have to do something.

Quite insufficient, that is why the doubts. He has never done a good job since the time of Adam and Eve. Creates beings and then sends a deluge.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If God wants us to believe in him why doesnt he do something about it.

God sends His Messengers. The better question is why do we reject them?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No.

Absolutly not what God said, this is what a man claims God said.

until God comes down and says it why would i believe it.

It may be God spoke to this man, it may be the man was mental, or the story was simply made up.

There is no way to know, and no one can show me even the remotest piece of evidence he exist.

There is many ways to know, but that is all up to you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I am a non-believer, a strong atheist (do not even consider it possible for an entity like God to exist). Anyone who takes recourse to the existence of God and bases his/her authority upon it is an absolute liar.

Thats quite ok, you can beleive or not believe. There is no compulsion in religion.

I am happy to give my life for the lie I live and you are most welcome to have this world and all it has to offer. There is no better Truth than that.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Quite agree. What world offers to you is the same as what it offers to me.

 

[QuestioningMind]

We have to have faith that God exists since God is not verifiable...
All we have for evidence that God exists is what God provides...
All that God provides are the Messengers of God to whom God communicates...

Thus, the logical thing to do is to try to determine if the claim of the Messenger is true, that He indeed received communication from God. We can never prove that but we can verify it to our own satisfaction with the evidence the Messenger provides and from other evidence that surrounds His Revelation. We have to determine that ourselves because otherwise we would be believing according to someone else’s determination, and it would not be our own belief. It would be their belief.

Actually the logical thing to do would be to NOT accept anything that cannot be verified. It's the 9/11 terrorists 'faith' that convinced then God wanted them to do horrible things. Maybe if they had refused to take anything on faith and had demanded verifiable evidence from God then it never would have happened.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Then I guess you will never believe in God, at least not in this earthly life, because there will never be verifiable evidence for God, sinceGod is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. The Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and can never be known except through Messengers of God who manifest God and reveal God’s attributes and God’s will.

Even after you die, you will not be able to verify God’s existence, but those who believed in God in this life will have their beliefs confirmed by feeling God’s Presence and hearing His Voice. I am not sure what happens to atheists in the afterlife, there are varying ideas and accounts.

One thing is clear though; it is better if we believe in God before we die, which is no doubt why the importance of belief is stressed in all the world religions. God wants us to believe in Him for our own benefit, not for His benefit; God does not need our belief because God has no needs.

Then I guess you will never believe in Magical Fairies, at least not in this earthly life, because there will never be verifiable evidence for Magical Fairies, since Magical Fairies is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. The Essence of Magical Fairies is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and can never be known except through Messengers of Magical Fairies who manifest Magical Fairies and reveal Magical Fairies’s attributes and Magical Fairies’ will.

Even after you die, you will not be able to verify Magical Fairies’ existence, but those who believed in Magical Fairies in this life will have their beliefs confirmed by feeling Magical Fairies’s Presence and hearing His Voice. I am not sure what happens to atheists in the afterlife, there are varying ideas and accounts.

One thing is clear though; it is better if we believe in Magical Fairies before we die, which is no doubt why the importance of belief is stressed in all the world religions. Magical Fairies wants us to believe in Him for our own benefit, not for His benefit; Magical Fairies does not need our belief because Magical Fairies has no needs.

So when are you going to start believing in Magical Fairies? If not, WHY not?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Actually the logical thing to do would be to NOT accept anything that cannot be verified. It's the 9/11 terrorists 'faith' that convinced then God wanted them to do horrible things.

Same goes for crusades, inquisition and missionay activities in past and present. Faith only brings strife to the world. The golden rule should be not to accept anything that cannot be verified. Just be humane (Fulfill yur responsibilities and engage in righteous action - 'dharma').