Faith is taught

[Pah]

Faith is taught

We know from the article Chapter II, John Locke's An Essay Concerning Human Understanding as presented in the thread, Morality does not come from God, that there is no innate thought in the mind of a newborn. We also know from that thread, among other characteristics of individuals, that morality is not fully rational until a third stage in the development of individuals.

What faith shares with morality is a predilection to be derived from authority and association until a rational process takes over in deducing and accepting the principles behind the authority figure and associative authority. John Rawls, regarding morality, address these developmental levels in sections 69 - 71 on page 397 of the ISBN edition 0-674-00078-1, A Theory of Justice .

Verification of morality is experience, non-harmful experience. Faith’s truth is derived from revelation or acceptance of a religious given.

Can anyone give an example of an article of faith that is derived from reason without the premise or supporting evidence of that article being taught?

 

[Ozzie]

Faith is taught

We know from the article Chapter II, John Locke's An Essay Concerning Human Understanding as presented in the thread, Morality does not come from God, that there is no innate thought in the mind of a newborn. We also know from that thread, among other characteristics of individuals, that morality is not fully rational until a third stage in the development of individuals.

What faith shares with morality is a predilection to be derived from authority and association until a rational process takes over in deducing and accepting the principles behind the authority figure and associative authority. John Rawls, regarding morality, address these developmental levels in sections 69 - 71 on page 397 of the ISBN edition 0-674-00078-1, A Theory of Justice .

Verification of morality is experience, non-harmful experience. Faith’s truth is derived from revelation or acceptance of a religious given.

Can anyone give an example of an article of faith that is derived from reason without the premise or supporting evidence of that article being taught?

This response will seem dry. I agree with you largely as far as human reasoning is concerned. IMO all knowledge is derived from experience. The fundamental processes are tied up in Hume's discussion of understanding of causality. We cannot understand that a light bulb is allumed by flicking a switch without having been exposed to the covariation. The causal explanation is learned afterwards and identified as reason.

 

[Halcyon]

Faith is taught

We know from the article Chapter II, John Locke's An Essay Concerning Human Understanding as presented in the thread, Morality does not come from God, that there is no innate thought in the mind of a newborn. We also know from that thread, among other characteristics of individuals, that morality is not fully rational until a third stage in the development of individuals.

What faith shares with morality is a predilection to be derived from authority and association until a rational process takes over in deducing and accepting the principles behind the authority figure and associative authority. John Rawls, regarding morality, address these developmental levels in sections 69 - 71 on page 397 of the ISBN edition 0-674-00078-1, A Theory of Justice .

Verification of morality is experience, non-harmful experience. Faith’s truth is derived from revelation or acceptance of a religious given.

Can anyone give an example of an article of faith that is derived from reason without the premise or supporting evidence of that article being taught?

Sure can.

I was raised atheist, i don't know any theists, except one Catholic girl who has no faith herself. For most of my life i was anti-theist, despised religion and thought theists were all idiots.

Yet now i have faith in a God, faith that i have developed through reasoning - though i doubt i could talk you through that reasoning process, i don't think anyone else would get it.

I had no authority figure to give me faith, and i still don't - i don't believe in following blindly.

 

[cardero]

Faith is taught
Can anyone give an example of an article of faith that is derived from reason without the premise or supporting evidence of that article being taught?

I’ll try.
When Faith is used for a child’s name.
When it is used as a literary device to further a story.

 

[Scuba Pete]

John 11:43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. NIV

I am not sure you wanted a Biblical reference, but I thought I would provide one. There are many such as this.

So now I have proof that Jesus raises people from the dead through these manuscripts. Surely, we could debate the quality and veracity of such documentation, but it does not appeal to an authority, but rather to an eye witness account.

Most faith is evidenced while some faith is clearly blind. Many would couch faith completely as being blind and this is misguided at best.

 

[Yerda]

Faith is taught

We know from...

It doesn't seem proper to say that we know anything from what John Locke said.

 

[Pah]

Sure can.

I was raised atheist, i don't know any theists, except one Catholic girl who has no faith herself. For most of my life i was anti-theist, despised religion and thought theists were all idiots.

Yet now i have faith in a God, faith that i have developed through reasoning - though i doubt i could talk you through that reasoning process, i don't think anyone else would get it.

I had no authority figure to give me faith, and i still don't - i don't believe in following blindly.

I guess my follow-up question would be about that very first thought. What triggered the first realization? Was it something you heard and then considered? Or did the first thought come "out of the blue" and progressed from there? Was it something you heard or read, regardless of being an authority. Not following blindly seems to be that you were presented with something and then accepted or rejected it. How did that get into your head?

In my life, I can remember only one original thought. It was a "search" strategy for an ordered list in a computer program and then I was told about "binary searches". It came as a flash.

 

[Pah]

John 11:43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. NIV

I am not sure you wanted a Biblical reference, but I thought I would provide one. There are many such as this.

So now I have proof that Jesus raises people from the dead through these manuscripts. Surely, we could debate the quality and veracity of such documentation, but it does not appeal to an authority, but rather to an eye witness account.

Most faith is evidenced while some faith is clearly blind. Many would couch faith completely as being blind and this is misguided at best.

It sure seems like today you use the bible as authority

 

[Pah]

It doesn't seem proper to say that we know anything from what John Locke said.

You would be right at a certain stage of human development

 

[Halcyon]

I guess my follow-up question would be about that very first thought. What triggered the first realization? Was it something you heard and then considered? Or did the first thought come "out of the blue" and progressed from there? Was it something you heard or read, regardless of being an authority. Not following blindly seems to be that you were presented with something and then accepted or rejected it. How did that get into your head?

In my life, I can remember only one original thought. It was a "search" strategy for an ordered list in a computer program and then I was told about "binary searches". It came as a flash.

It was about ten years ago, but i'll tell you what i remember.

I think i was trying to wrap my brain around A Brief History of Time by Hawking, which led me to research loads of other cosmological theories.
I was looking for purpose and reason, but couldn't find any. I wanted to know why the universe should exist at all, but obviously science doesn't deal with answers to questions like that.
I concluded that there must be something "beyond" that was the creator of everything - p-branes, space/time, the lot. Some origin or first cause, a reason for existance.
I didn't really give it much thought after that, i guess i was agnostic deist - not really any different to the atheist i was before. I didn't believe in God as described by any religion and still don't.

It wasn't until my father died that i started exploring religion. So, i had faith in an unknown origin, but didn't put a 'face' to it until fairly recently.
Is that what you wanted?

 

[Pah]

You put faith in John Lockes words, why? Because you reasoned them to be true. The faithful put faith in what we believe to be the words of God. Why? For the exact same reason. While the sources may be different, the process by which we put faith in them is still the same.

Yep. I wouldn't know Locke's thoughts unless I read them. And having read them, I gave assent, as he would say. There was no revelation involved. But there was a precussor to Locke and that was other things I read about the "blank slate" of a newborn.

It all goes to show that manifestation of faith is not innate. Which means you have had to learn it, hear about about it, read about it. Which means it was taught.

 

[Pah]

It was about ten years ago, but i'll tell you what i remember.

I think i was trying to wrap my brain around A Brief History of Time by Hawking, which led me to research loads of other cosmological theories.
I was looking for purpose and reason, but couldn't find any. I wanted to know why the universe should exist at all, but obviously science doesn't deal with answers to questions like that.
I concluded that there must be something "beyond" that was the creator of everything - p-branes, space/time, the lot. Some origin or first cause, a reason for existance.
I didn't really give it much thought after that, i guess i was agnostic deist - not really any different to the atheist i was before. I didn't believe in God as described by any religion and still don't.

It wasn't until my father died that i started exploring religion. So, i had faith in an unknown origin, but didn't put a 'face' to it until fairly recently.
Is that what you wanted?

Yes thanks. It seems to fit my question.

But I still see a social influence. From the data you had of cosmic creation, you could just as easily conclude that there is no purpose to consider. I'd also say that in your exploring, you were given the ideas to evaluate.

 

[Pah]

Yes, but that also goes to show that people's faith should not be taken lightly let alone discredited, even if it's something you don't happen to agree with yourself. However, I personally think it's healthy to give people's faith a bit of a challenge to help them further understand why they believe what they believe.

Faith, in a religious sense, has a premise that is based on no creditiable evidence. Acceptance of a supernatural diety goes beyond what can be conclusively shown to be true

 

[Ðanisty]

I wasn't raised with any faith at all. I was never particularly exposed to it and never particularly had any feelings about it. In high school I got into LaVeyan Satanism which as most already know is atheistic in nature. I was a Satanist for 6 years. I realized in college that I believe in something more. I realized this when I was writing the outline for a paper about Satanism for a class. I realized that the words I was writing were just from memory...not from what I really felt. I realized I actually felt quite empty which explained the last few years of my life pretty well. I wasn't talking to anyone or reading anything when I realized I believed in something. I also wasn't talking to anyone or reading anything when I realized what I believe in. It came from inside me.

I'm curious, if faith must be taught, how do you think it started?

Faith, in a religious sense, has a premise that is based on no creditiable evidence. Acceptance of a supernatural diety goes beyond what can be conclusively shown to be true

Of course...otherwise it wouldn't be faith. What's your point?

 

[Scott1]

What faith shares with morality is a predilection to be derived from authority and association until a rational process takes over in deducing and accepting the principles behind the authority figure and associative authority.

You are talking about one specific type of faith.... and so I would say that yours/Lockes opinion is only true to a point.

Mysticism, in its classic form, is a "firsthand" experience... the mystic receives some form of "wisdom" or experience. Those who then follow this mystic, then would fall under your theory as well as those who come to faith in a monotheistic religion. I would also suggest that ancient peoples who had some form of faith (thunder and lightning being some form of "power from above" etc.) did not learn it from anyone.

Peace in Christ,
S

 

[Scuba Pete]

It sure seems like today you use the bible as authority

It is an historical document, is it not? I know there have been posts when even you have quoted from these same scriptures.

 

[fantome profane]

Surely, we could debate the quality and veracity of such documentation, but it does not appeal to an authority, but rather to an eye witness account.

It is an historical document, is it not? I know there have been posts when even you have quoted from these same scriptures.

I think you missed the point. You can say that the Bible is a historical document and therefore it is legitimate to use it as an authority, but you cannot say at the same time that you are not using an appeal to authority.

You say this is an eyewitness account but we have no evidence that any of these people even existed, much less that they actually saw what the Bible claims. So before you can claim this is an eyewitness account you must have first done an appeal to the authority of the Bible.

 

[Halcyon]

But I still see a social influence. From the data you had of cosmic creation, you could just as easily conclude that there is no purpose to consider.

Perhaps purpose was the wrong word, i just needed to see a reason behind existance. I guess i could have concluded that the universe simply popped into existance without a cause, but that goes against my personal reasoning.

I'd also say that in your exploring, you were given the ideas to evaluate.

True. But my faith in the existance of an unknown originator erupted spontaneously, i believe, prior to that one evening of thought i was quite anti-theist.

 

[A. Leaf]

As per Ozzie. Their are ones that want to know how the light bulb is allumed, others will just want to sell as many light bulbs as possible, and not care about the creation itself.

 

[Scott1]

I think you missed the point. You can say that the Bible is a historical document and therefore it is legitimate to use it as an authority, but you cannot say at the same time that you are not using an appeal to authority.

You say this is an eyewitness account but we have no evidence that any of these people even existed, much less that they actually saw what the Bible claims. So before you can claim this is an eyewitness account you must have first done an appeal to the authority of the Bible.

Not for me.... faith in God was not predicated on any Biblical account or "authority" of the Bible. Faith, for me, was an encounter with love... an inner sense of a higher power.... I later came to have faith in the Bible as an explaination of what I felt inside. I may be in errror, but the contention that faith must be learned is to me false... how a person expresses that faith with others in religion must be learned, but faith in and of itself can come from nothing more than reason and nature.