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Faith and facts

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I dont think logic or contradiction have anything to do with it.

If you have proof, then faith is not even a topic.

Faith is a highest value in Christianity; behold Lot.

Probably this is a result of "making a virtue of
necessity".

Yes. The consensus among some christians is evidence or facts back up the validity of their faith. Yet, scripture says the validity of their faith is not facts (what you can see) but on faith.

I have my own opinions, but Im sure their is logic behind theirs as well.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yes. The consensus among some christians is evidence or facts back up the validity of their faith. Yet, scripture says the validity of their faith is not facts (what you can see) but on faith.

I have my own opinions, but Im sure their is logic behind theirs as well.

I dont see where logic has any bearing on it at all.

Prease exprain.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I dont see where logic has any bearing on it at all.

Prease exprain.

I was wondering if christians can explain the logic of saying that one has facts to validate christian claims but on the other hand, one doesnt need varification if their belief is based on fact.

Some of them already answered throughout the post. I have to catch up with replying back.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why try to prove the validity of Christian truths such as making conclusions on historical findings and written testimonies when the basis of Christian religion is based on faith?

Why try to find facts to prove the validity of christianity yet sustain that we can't see the truth with our senses but only by faith?

As is.
The idea of faith as "believing claims without evidence" is a relatively new invention. Historically, faith was more about trust or loyalty (as can be seen in the word "faithfulness").

It's only when religious beliefs have started to appear ridiculous or implausible that the meaning of "faith" morphed into the idea that it's virtuous to believe these claims despite their lack of support.

There's also a fair but of conflict in the Bible about this... at least if we want to take its references to "faith" as "believing without evidence." Plenty of passages talk about how followers of Christ should be able to defend their beliefs with truth and fact.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The idea of faith as "believing claims without evidence" is a relatively new invention. Historically, faith was more about trust or loyalty (as can be seen in the word "faithfulness").

It's only when religious beliefs have started to appear ridiculous or implausible that the meaning of "faith" morphed into the idea that it's virtuous to believe these claims despite their lack of support.

There's also a fair but of conflict in the Bible about this... at least if we want to take its references to "faith" as "believing without evidence." Plenty of passages talk about how followers of Christ should be able to defend their beliefs with truth and fact.

The book can be read to say whatever one is looking for.

The popularity of Christianity is in no small way related to
how it is able to morph to the circumstances of the time
place.

I imagine that Newton believed there had been a flood.
And argue from the book should anyone in those benighted
times dare to question.

Today, well, maybe not so much.
But he could find it in the book that it was not literal.
IF he could bring himself to be a Christian at all.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Why try to prove the validity of Christian truths such as making conclusions on historical findings and written testimonies when the basis of Christian religion is based on faith?

Why try to find facts to prove the validity of christianity yet sustain that we can't see the truth with our senses but only by faith?

As is.

To humans, sometimes facts can only be based on faith.

George Washington quote:
Real men despise battle, but will never run from it.

Please provide the date and time and location, together with the related evidence that Washington ever said so.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
To humans, sometimes facts can only be based on faith.

George Washington quote:
Real men despise battle, but will never run from it.

Please provide the date and time and location, together with the related evidence that Washington ever said so.
Is the truth or falsehood of the quote dependent on whether Washington actually said it?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Why try to prove the validity of Christian truths such as making conclusions on historical findings and written testimonies when the basis of Christian religion is based on faith?

Why try to find facts to prove the validity of christianity yet sustain that we can't see the truth with our senses but only by faith?

As is.
Faith is simply trusting in God. It's not just accepting things as true "just because". So if we prove Christianity we should.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Faith is simply trusting in God. It's not just accepting things as true "just because". So if we prove Christianity we should.

What does it mean in that view when you trust things unseen are true but something isn't true unless evidence proves otherwise?

If that be the case?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
To humans, sometimes facts can only be based on faith.

George Washington quote:
Real men despise battle, but will never run from it.

Please provide the date and time and location, together with the related evidence that Washington ever said so.
Do you regularly provide date time and location together with regular evidence with what you quote?
 
I would say a better word is Truth rather than fact; but, I can see how an experience can be a fact to that person hence why they use the word.

If they believed without experience, Id assume thats what Hebrews is referring to. Experience is a result of faith not a confirmation for it.

I see so often in our media etc that its the other way around. People need experience, what they "see" before they have faith. By definition, hebrews speaks of blind faith (which is repeatitive) not evidence based faith.

Would anyone believe in god without needing experiences?
Cause I think thats were hebrews is getting at.

I gauss faith has to be defined.

I think biblical faith is NOT mental assent to any particular doctrines. Its ACTIVE and it does WORK.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Gullibility? What do you mean?

When you date someone, you are getting to know that person. You are putting trust/faith that what he says about himself is true. When you get to know each other, your guard drops more and after that first hump of trust you start to see his view as truth or fact. Then, when he cheats or lies your faith is crushed.

It does not mean you are guillible. You had justification for your trust because of your relationship experience. Just it went badly. Guillibility isnt a bad word.

A lot of people who start to trust others will be guillible to an extent. Its part of the process of trust. Take down the ego and walk literaly blind towards the light. (Hence blind and now I see rather than experience and now I see)

I dont know what your question is asking, but my question is in Hebrews it says faith is believing in things unseen is true.....

If you need to experience your boyfriend's love before you know its true or fact, thats not faith. If you need to experience godly things to know gods love is fact, thats not faith.

In order for it to be a fact, you have to jump the ship or cliff, bring down your need for evidence, and accept whats given. Then base your experienecs on that.

My question is, in Hebrews it says faith is believing in things not seen are true. If you need (or do you need?) evidence/experience to have faith, isnt that a contradiction in the nature of faith as defined by the bible?
I think you used two good examples I can work with - a relationship, and jumping.
I'll start with jumping.
There is a saying, "Look before you leap."
Why look, why not just jump?
Say someone told you to jump, would you, if you didn't have a measure of faith, or trust in the person?
In order to have faith or trust, would you not need a reason?
Would anyone in their right mind meet someone today 8:00pm, and marry them today 9:00pm?
Does anyone in their right mind close their eyes, and jump both feet into something they know nothing about?

To me...
a person who is in a relationship with someone, trusts, or has a measure of faith in that person, only after getting to know something about, or having a reason to trust that person.
The evidence is what they know - their reason for trust.

A person who trusts, or has faith in a person. despite having no reason to, or knowledge of, is simply gullible imo.
It's like a person closing their eyes, and saying, "I trust, no matter what."
Like jumping without looking, with your eyes closed, and perhaps hoping that by some coincidence, there is a stretched out tarp below.

So what is the evidence for an invisible God, you ask.
Roman 1:19, 20
This is what I tried to explain to you a number of times, but it seems you aren't getting it.
I'll post the example I referred you to, again.

When I look at a painting, I can come to what I think are both reasonable and logical conclusions... as well as sensible.
Example:
watercolour-1336856_960_720.jpg

heart-606758_960_720.jpg

sea-shapes-abstract-2-3432660_960_720.jpg

fantasy-3049543_960_720.jpg

composing-2925179_960_720.jpg

raven-988218_960_720.jpg

Consider Workbook A.
What are the possible conclusions I can arrive at?
For me, I could either conclude that someone, or something caused these effects, either with purpose, or without purpose - random, if you will, and without deliberation.

Consider Workbook B
What are the possible conclusions I can arrive at?
For me, I could either conclude that someone, or something caused these effects, but with purpose, and deliberately. As far as I know, for something to be done deliberately, and with purpose, requires forethought, and this can only be done with a mind - intelligence.
I don't know of any other possible way. Do you?

Perhaps the simplest of things man makes, is a house. What accounts for the more complex things? Hebrews 3:4

The way our body functions, gives evidence of purposeful design.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Once a person is in the faith the bible instructs them to trust God with all their hearts and lean not on thy own understanding.

So its not a half hearted decision, but a forever commitment decision.
Of course, one must first believe that God is, but they don't do so blindly.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The Bible and Jesus certainly doesn't have the evidence that Egyptian pharaohs have. In fact , we still have the physical remains of the Pharaohs themselves for which we can construct their features for using forensic reconstruction.

Can't be said its the same thing for Jesus or any of the Apostle's for that matter.

But I'll say this for any modern day Christian, that faith is pretty much all you have.
This is not true.
We have an accurate record, which some of its contents have been verified, and characters as well. We don't expect anyone to be dug up, to verify they existed.
Even today there are name in history, of persons we have never seen, and no one argues against they having existed.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
This is not true.
We have an accurate record, which some of its contents have been verified, and characters as well. We don't expect anyone to be dug up, to verify they existed.
Even today there are name in history, of persons we have never seen, and no one argues against they having existed.
If there is an accurate record , I have yet to see it.
 
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