F0uad and 1robin Koran and Bible

[F0uad]

Robin have you actually a argument or a point that comes from you and is not copied?

You must have been watching Deedat during Ramadan. That was his go to. I have selected what I will post but am very busy at work so didn't post it yet but will soon. Selah,

Deedat is old news i am not sure why you brought him up here if you don't want me to address those subject just tell me.

Before i am going to reply on you can you first tell me what you claim or what you need a answer for? Because your claiming different kind of things.

1. That Mohammed(saws) is demon possessed
- This has never been proven and would be a contradiction of how Mohammed(saws) lived and teaches. Surely if this was the case Islam wouldn't promote Jesus(p), hes companions, mother and the previous messengers/prophets(peace be upon them) nor would it teach monotheism.

2. That the angel is not Gabriel but the devil
- No proof whatsoever ever only speculations, is there any proof that the Angel in the bible was a Angel and not a devil?

3. That Mohammed(saws) had eclipse therefore has symphony's of possession
- If this is the case then everyone who has eclipse is possessed what seems silly yet there no Authentic source that gives any indication he had it the ''sources'' you used is like me quoting the gospel of Thomas. The first attribution of epileptic seizures to Muhammad comes from the 8th century Byzantine historian Theophanes who wrote that Muhammad’s wife "was very much grieved that she, being of noble descent, was tied to such a man, who was not only poor but epileptic as well."
Having ellipsis and connecting with demon possessing is very offensive towards millions of people and stupid its a medical thing.

One last detail on the cave event:

"I cannot read," Muhammad answered, because he was illiterate. The spirit squeezed him again so tightly he that thought he would die, and commanded him again, "Read." "I cannot read," he answered. The The spirit tightened his grasp and squeezed him more and said for the third time, "Read." Afraid that he might die, Muhammad said, "What shall I read?" After his encounter with the spirit, Muhammad was afraid that what happened to him was from a Jinni. Then later, Muhammad declared in the Quran that the spirit who squeezed him was the angel Gabriel. We read in Surat Al-Baqarah 2:97:
Chapter 2: Muhammad's Call
Whatever was in the cave is something I hope never to meet. There is no paralel in the bible where spirits call prophets with violence. The opposite is the case and should be.

Nothing interesting or relevant anyway i will reply on it.

Where in the Hadiths does it states that Mohammed(saws) was afraid to die? It only states that he was afraid of the angel Gabriel not of death. The Angel did not simply say ''Read'' he said ''Read in the name of your lord'' not speaking about himself indicating God send him. First of all Mohammed(saws) was not sure of it was a Jin or a angel who first acknowledged it was a angel were Christians not hes wife see the irony?

Violence? Was Mohammed(saws) injured? There is no historical context on how a angel revealed him/her self in the bible. Your also confusing two things in Islam we do not belief that the devil is a fallen angel but a Jin since angels do not have free-wills.

Sorry if i did not reply on everything since you most copied/pasted arguments and never used your own i rather want this to be a discussion between us where we actually use Authentic sources to address several teachings.

 

[1robin]

I do not have time today to continue with the debate but I will say that I copy as much as possible. I am lazy, have terrible grammer which is not helped by the fact that I can't use the spell checker on this cpu, and most importantly have little time. That does not mean I do not read about the issues before hand. This is an unothedox but very personally interesting issue.

Why does copying stuff have anything to do with it's claims. Since the bulk of what we know we read somewhere else, what is the point?

There is no issue about Deedat. He just loved that argument. I do not care whether you use it or not. I was just pointing it out there was no insinuation of any kind. As I said I like Deedat but thought he was a lesser debater than Ali. That's it.

I usually start off with a canned argument that I have reviewed and I think has merit. In the course of debate if that does actually happen, then the issue is reduced down to address what I find personally meaningful concerning the issue after the other person adds their weight of knowledge. Almost every argument or point you have made against the bible I was already aware of and I even told you so. However I never indicated that that made it less valid.

I do not understand the contention. I found this issue already existed but was personally intriguing and was not usually debated in standard debates. Again I have no idea what is unique or contentious about my claim unless you didn't like the subject matter personally. I think you are being overly sensitive.

 

[1robin]

Robin have you actually a argument or a point that comes from you and is not copied?

See previous post.

Deedat is old news i am not sure why you brought him up here if you don't want me to address those subject just tell me.

How did you get this from what I said?

Before i am going to reply on you can you first tell me what you claim or what you need a answer for? Because your claiming different kind of things.

I already posted a summary but I will do so again. I claim the Muhammad's experieneces with what he called Gabriel are of the exact character that is well known to be demonic. They were certainly not consistent with other cases of how God called any other prophet. Could he have been visited by demonic forces that gave him false revelation?

1. That Mohammed(saws) is demon possessed
- This has never been proven and would be a contradiction of how Mohammed(saws) lived and teaches. Surely if this was the case Islam wouldn't promote Jesus(p), hes companions, mother and the previous messengers/prophets(peace be upon them) nor would it teach monotheism.

This is interesting. The most effective lie would be one that was true except for the most crucial part. Whatever visited Muhammad differed in the one (among other) areas that is the core tenant of Christianity. The death and resurrection and nature of Christ. The bible even states that if anyone contradicts the biblical description of Christ he is an anti-Christ. I do not claim that Muhammad was possesed. I think it likely he was influenced by something malevolent. The lest likely possability IMO is a visit and call to prophethood from God that involved Gabriel.

2. That the angel is not Gabriel but the devil
- No proof whatsoever ever only speculations, is there any proof that the Angel in the bible was a Angel and not a devil?

Of course there is no proof. There is no proof that it was Gabriel either. The evidence we have would suggest anything other than an angelic visit and call to prophethood. There is no example of this in the many times God called a prophet in the bible that is consistent (or not totally the opposite) of what happened to Muhammad. No prophet in the bible thought a Jinn visited him, or considered suicide, or foamed at the mouth etc.... all of the many examples in the bible the angel immediately comforted the person and identified who he was and who sent him. The Quran nor the bible is true unless proven false. They both make extraordinary claims and must provide extraordinary evidence. You have it backwards.

3. That Mohammed(saws) had eclipse therefore has symphony's of possession
Having ellipsis

It's epilepsy. I do not support this view but there is some merit in the concept, however I will drop it.

Nothing interesting or relevant anyway i will reply on it.

I find it crucial.

Where in the Hadiths does it states that Mohammed(saws) was afraid to die? It only states that he was afraid of the angel Gabriel not of death. The Angel did not simply say ''Read'' he said ''Read in the name of your lord'' not speaking about himself indicating God send him. First of all Mohammed(saws) was not sure of it was a Jin or a angel who first acknowledged it was a angel were Christians not hes wife see the irony?

I did not say and I did not think I quoted anyone who said he was afraid to die. I said the spirit seized him and squeezed him to the point of misery. That is inconsistent with every other call to prophethood I know of and counter to common sence. It is however consistent with a malevolent spirit.

Violence? Was Mohammed(saws) injured? There is no historical context on how a angel revealed him/her self in the bible.

There are countless accounts of the nature of visits from angels in the bible. Way more than the Quran. I even provided two for Gabriel alone.

Your also confusing two things in Islam we do not belief that the devil is a fallen angel but a Jin since angels do not have free-wills.

I knew that and thought I said Jinn. I did so for a fact above.

Sorry if i did not reply on everything since you most copied/pasted arguments and never used your own i rather want this to be a discussion between us where we actually use Authentic sources to address several teachings

I looked through the sources and there were many Hadith's among them as well as other legitamate texts. I have covered the copying thing in my previous post.

 

[F0uad]

Ill drop the comments about Deedat or Ali since my arguments will not even be a reflection of what they said.

See previous post.

I did nothing news, you have posted the sources and quotes from the websites but i don't really mind.

How did you get this from what I said?

You were the one who brought him up when i mentioned those subjects..

I already posted a summary but I will do so again. I claim the Muhammad's experieneces with what he called Gabriel are of the exact character that is well known to be demonic. They were certainly not consistent with other cases of how God called any other prophet. Could he have been visited by demonic forces that gave him false revelation?

Gabriel appears in the Old Testament Book of Daniel and in Luke's Gospel. Gabriel appeared twice to the prophet Daniel.
Gabriel also had the privilege of announcing the future births of John(p) and Jesus(p). In Luke's Gospel, the angel appeared to Zechariah(p) to announce the coming birth of John(p) to his wife Elizabeth. Gabriel said this about himself in the bible: "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, who sent me to speak to you and tell you this good news." So we can clearly see that Gabriel is a ''messenger'' of God.
If the Angel that visit Mohammed(saws) ''could'' have been a demon then al these story's in the bible could also have been a demon

This is interesting. The most effective lie would be one that was true except for the most crucial part. Whatever visited Muhammad differed in the one (among other) areas that is the core tenant of Christianity. The death and resurrection and nature of Christ. The bible even states that if anyone contradicts the biblical description of Christ he is an anti-Christ. I do not claim that Muhammad was possesed. I think it likely he was influenced by something malevolent. The lest likely possability IMO is a visit and call to prophethood from God that involved Gabriel.

Yeah so around 5Billion people are Anti-Christ's and we will all go to hell.
Does sincerity comes in account and the fruits someone bears? Anyway i don't want this to turn into a different subject so i will leave it at this.

Of course there is no proof. There is no proof that it was Gabriel either. The evidence we have would suggest anything other than an angelic visit and call to prophethood. There is no example of this in the many times God called a prophet in the bible that is consistent (or not totally the opposite) of what happened to Muhammad. No prophet in the bible thought a Jinn visited him, or considered suicide, or foamed at the mouth etc.... all of the many examples in the bible the angel immediately comforted the person and identified who he was and who sent him. The Quran nor the bible is true unless proven false. They both make extraordinary claims and must provide extraordinary evidence. You have it backwards.

Robin my friend you have not proven that Mohammed(saws) considered suicide(what is a huge sin), foamed true hes mouth or had ellipsis by using Authentic sources when meeting with the Angel. Your second statement also makes no sense since we cannot ''proof'' everything that the Bible tells us also it looks to me that you want to change subjects.
To further understand my argument is there any proof that angel's exist? Are you saying we can discard the Quranic and Hadiths but not the Bible when it comes to angels?

It's epilepsy. I do not support this view but there is some merit in the concept, however I will drop it.

Forgive me for my typo's.

I find it crucial.

Ok, however you should post the correct story with additional Islamic information.

I did not say and I did not think I quoted anyone who said he was afraid to die. I said the spirit seized him and squeezed him to the point of misery. That is inconsistent with every other call to prophethood I know of and counter to common sence. It is however consistent with a malevolent spirit.

Do you think each prophet had the same ''call'' to prophet-hood? Some only had visions or dreams according to the bible how is that more reliable then physical contact?

''The point of misery'' doesn't show up in my text.

There are countless accounts of the nature of visits from angels in the bible. Way more than the Quran. I even provided two for Gabriel alone.

And you have actually read the Quran? Gabriel him/it self it mentioned more often in the Quran then the bible but who cares .

I knew that and thought I said Jinn. I did so for a fact above.

Ok.

I looked through the sources and there were many Hadith's among them as well as other legitamate texts. I have covered the copying thing in my previous post.

Could you possible post those hadiths with there source?

Your first source was Ibn Hisham who had some obvious mistakes in hes work he edited the work of Ibn Ishaq ill show you a example of a mistake: according to Ibn Hisham, Muhammad(saws) was fourteen or fifteen years old when he participated in the war. But in the same Sira, it is quoted from Ibn Ishaq that when the sacrilegious war occurred, the Prophet(saws) was twenty years old. He just passed down sayings without looking at its authenticity since the science of Hadith merged in the year 900, after hes death in 833. As i said before the Byzantine's (enemies of the Arabs in that time) made stories about him it could possible be that this story is passed down from them since those stories developed in the 800 and not earlier.

Maybe next time you could post the Hadith book and number so i can check the narrator's, biographies and look how Islamic scholars commented so i can give you a answer.

The website you quoted says

''Umar b. al-Khattab said: "When revelation descended upon Muhammad, one could hear it near his face like the humming of bees"''

This gives no indication of being possessed whatsoever or having any illnesses.

The website gives only one source where you can get a indication that:

''He became distressed, foamng at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel''

when it ''quotes'' Ahmad b. Hanbal I, however it doesn't mention which book so can you possible give me the book of Ahmad B Hanbal where its mentioned and if its narrated or written down by Ahmad and seen Authentic?

I can't find any authentic sources that gives the indication that Mohammed(saws) had epilepsy or the will to kill himself when he got the revelation from the Angel except from ''NOT'' authentic sources that date back to the Byzantine Empire and sources as i have mentioned in my previous post.

 

[1robin]

Ill drop the comments about Deedat or Ali since my arguments will not even be a reflection of what they said.

I did nothing news, you have posted the sources and quotes from the websites but i don't really mind.You were the one who brought him up when i mentioned those subjects..
Gabriel appears in the Old Testament Book of Daniel and in Luke's Gospel. Gabriel appeared twice to the prophet Daniel.
Gabriel also had the privilege of announcing the future births of John(p) and Jesus(p). In Luke's Gospel, the angel appeared to Zechariah(p) to announce the coming birth of John(p) to his wife Elizabeth. Gabriel said this about himself in the bible: "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, who sent me to speak to you and tell you this good news." So we can clearly see that Gabriel is a ''messenger'' of God.
If the Angel that visit Mohammed(saws) ''could'' have been a demon then al these story's in the bible could also have been a demon


Yeah so around 5Billion people are Anti-Christ's and we will all go to hell.
Does sincerity comes in account and the fruits someone bears? Anyway i don't want this to turn into a different subject so i will leave it at this.

Robin my friend you have not proven that Mohammed(saws) considered suicide(what is a huge sin), foamed true hes mouth or had ellipsis by using Authentic sources when meeting with the Angel. Your second statement also makes no sense since we cannot ''proof'' everything that the Bible tells us also it looks to me that you want to change subjects.
To further understand my argument is there any proof that angel's exist? Are you saying we can discard the Quranic and Hadiths but not the Bible when it comes to angels?

Forgive me for my typo's.
Ok, however you should post the correct story with additional Islamic information.


Do you think each prophet had the same ''call'' to prophet-hood? Some only had visions or dreams according to the bible how is that more reliable then physical contact?

''The point of misery'' doesn't show up in my text.

And you have actually read the Quran? Gabriel him/it self it mentioned more often in the Quran then the bible but who cares .


Ok.
Could you possible post those hadiths with there source?

Your first source was Ibn Hisham who had some obvious mistakes in hes work he edited the work of Ibn Ishaq ill show you a example of a mistake: according to Ibn Hisham, Muhammad(saws) was fourteen or fifteen years old when he participated in the war. But in the same Sira, it is quoted from Ibn Ishaq that when the sacrilegious war occurred, the Prophet(saws) was twenty years old. He just passed down sayings without looking at its authenticity since the science of Hadith merged in the year 900, after hes death in 833. As i said before the Byzantine's (enemies of the Arabs in that time) made stories about him it could possible be that this story is passed down from them since those stories developed in the 800 and not earlier.

Maybe next time you could post the Hadith book and number so i can check the narrator's, biographies and look how Islamic scholars commented so i can give you a answer.

The website you quoted says This gives no indication of being possessed whatsoever or having any illnesses.

The website gives only one source where you can get a indication that: when it ''quotes'' Ahmad b. Hanbal I, however it doesn't mention which book so can you possible give me the book of Ahmad B Hanbal where its mentioned and if its narrated or written down by Ahmad and seen Authentic?

I can't find any authentic sources that gives the indication that Mohammed(saws) had epilepsy or the will to kill himself when he got the revelation from the Angel except from ''NOT'' authentic sources that date back to the Byzantine Empire and sources as i have mentioned in my previous post.

Glad to hear from you F0uad. I am out of time today but will review this and respond soon.

Selah,

 

[1robin]

Ill drop the comments about Deedat or Ali since my arguments will not even be a reflection of what they said.

OK, I responded to your 700,000 text claims in that thread.

I did nothing news, you have posted the sources and quotes from the websites but i don't really mind.You were the one who brought him up when i mentioned those subjects..

Just because he loved that one. I actually liked him.

Gabriel appears in the Old Testament Book of Daniel and in Luke's Gospel. Gabriel appeared twice to the prophet Daniel.
Gabriel also had the privilege of announcing the future births of John(p) and Jesus(p). In Luke's Gospel, the angel appeared to Zechariah(p) to announce the coming birth of John(p) to his wife Elizabeth. Gabriel said this about himself in the bible: "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, who sent me to speak to you and tell you this good news." So we can clearly see that Gabriel is a ''messenger'' of God.
If the Angel that visit Mohammed(saws) ''could'' have been a demon then al these story's in the bible could also have been a demon

By the laws of Philosophy two contradicting claims to absolute truth can't both be true. So we have several accounts of Gabriel in the bible and several in the Quran and they are contradictory so they are not both true. So which one looks more like an angel of God. The ones in the bible where he shows up says where he is from and who he is, comforts any fears the people had, gives messages from God that concern Godly things that come to pass, and leaves them in peace. Or the one in the Quran where he shows up doesn't identify himself, scares people without reason who think he is a Jinn or Demon, causes convulsions, foaming at the mouth, makes point blank demands, and physically dominates people, basically acts just like demon posessions in the bible and recorded even in modern times. No matter what standard is used they can't both be the same angel and the ones in the bible are more angelic and the Quran's more demonic.

Yeah so around 5Billion people are Anti-Christ's and we will all go to hell.
Does sincerity comes in account and the fruits someone bears? Anyway i don't want this to turn into a different subject so i will leave it at this.

Where did that number come from. It isn't my rule that is what God said.

Robin my friend you have not proven that Mohammed(saws) considered suicide(what is a huge sin), foamed true hes mouth or had ellipsis by using Authentic sources when meeting with the Angel. Your second statement also makes no sense since we cannot ''proof'' everything that the Bible tells us also it looks to me that you want to change subjects.

Since this is the only possible response that could be given even though these issues are widely known in Islamic circles I have been checking into sources but haven't had much time. To be honest denying them looks like an act of desperation as they are so well accepted.

To further understand my argument is there any proof that angel's exist? Are you saying we can discard the Quranic and Hadiths but not the Bible when it comes to angels?

No, They are the primary source for information on angels. The bible is far more reliable by every standard imagineable but I do not rule out the Quran. I do not understand what you are suggesting here.

Forgive me for my typo's.

Don't worry about it. I can't spell either and I have less excuse.

Ok, however you should post the correct story with additional Islamic information.

I think all the sources are mentioned and are accepted but I will dig deeper.

Do you think each prophet had the same ''call'' to prophet-hood? Some only had visions or dreams according to the bible how is that more reliable then physical contact?

Not exactly, but haveing a call that lines up exactly with known documentated cases of satanic or demonic influence and completely the opposite of every instance of known calls by Godly angels is a red flag.

''The point of misery'' doesn't show up in my text.

It is more accurate to say discomfort. Whatever the degree there is no imagineable benevolent purpose to it.

And you have actually read the Quran? Gabriel him/it self it mentioned more often in the Quran then the bible but who cares .

That is an appeal to popularity and is invalid. I could write the name Gabriel ten thousand times in a book that doesn't make it reliable. Since the bible is a far earlier source and contains far more angelic references in total it is by far the greater source for angels and demons.

Ok.
Could you possible post those hadiths with there source?

I do intend to but I think many were referenced in the previous post.

Your first source was Ibn Hisham who had some obvious mistakes in hes work he edited the work of Ibn Ishaq ill show you a example of a mistake: according to Ibn Hisham, Muhammad(saws) was fourteen or fifteen years old when he participated in the war. But in the same Sira, it is quoted from Ibn Ishaq that when the sacrilegious war occurred, the Prophet(saws) was twenty years old. He just passed down sayings without looking at its authenticity since the science of Hadith merged in the year 900, after hes death in 833. As i said before the Byzantine's (enemies of the Arabs in that time) made stories about him it could possible be that this story is passed down from them since those stories developed in the 800 and not earlier.

Here goes that tactic I mentioned long ago. Muslims are very selective with parts of this and that Hadith and it differs with every Muslim and every issue. It seems it is whatever is convenient. However we will cover this exhaustively as I want to learn more and you have asked for more.

Maybe next time you could post the Hadith book and number so i can check the narrator's, biographies and look how Islamic scholars commented so i can give you a answer.

I thought the earlier posts did so. Regardless I will.

The website you quoted says This gives no indication of being possessed whatsoever or having any illnesses.

Which one I had several and I did not read this, They seemed to draw the opposite conclusion from everything I read. Regardless whatever it was, was not consistent with calls to profithood.

The website gives only one source where you can get a indication that: when it ''quotes'' Ahmad b. Hanbal I, however it doesn't mention which book so can you possible give me the book of Ahmad B Hanbal where its mentioned and if its narrated or written down by Ahmad and seen Authentic?

I will do my best.

I can't find any authentic sources that gives the indication that Mohammed(saws) had epilepsy or the will to kill himself when he got the revelation from the Angel except from ''NOT'' authentic sources that date back to the Byzantine Empire and sources as i have mentioned in my previous post.

[/quote] I do not support epilepsy and so will not defend it. I just mentioned it because it is plausable when only one witness is concerned. Yes the sources will be researched as soon as I have time.

Talk at you soon,
Selah

 

[1robin]

Sources for claims:

Thoughts of Suicide, terror, and that a Jinn had possesed Muhammad:

His wife Khudeija - (Karen Armstrong, op. cit. p. 137 ff).
Khudeija feared that he must have been possessed by an evil Jinn's spirits,
Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461
Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3
Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad
(Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p.73-75)
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 452).
(Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 73-75).

Muhammad being a false prophet:

Professor Fazlur Rahman is one among the prominent Muslim scholars.
S. 25:8 Y. Ali
S. 26:153 Y. Ali
S. 44:14 Sher Ali
(MacDonald, The Religious Attitude and Life in Islam, p. 33).
(Watt, Bell's Introduction to the Qur'an, p. 23).
Abu Talib

Convulsions and seizures at the time of revelation:

His wife Khudeija
His personal biographers (the oldest called "hired biographers")- from (Martin Ling, op. cit, p. 245)
Aisha
Zaid

Foaming at the mouth and ranting and raving:

(mizanul MizanuŸl Haqq, page 345)
Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3
Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461
Abu Harira

Strange noises when "Gabriel" came:
Harith ibn Hashem
(mizanul MizanuŸl Haqq, page 345)
Zeid Thabib
Abu Harira


Strange trance like states:

Sahih Muslim 26,5395
Sahih Al-Bukhari 5,58,170
Sahih Al-Bukhari 1,1,3
(Halabieh, 1, page 75)
(Halabieh, 1, page 98)
(Sahih al-Bukhari, 1, page 96)
Aiesha

That Muhammad had been treated for fits and seizures even before the cave:

Ibn Ishaq
His wife Khudeija


I am afraid it may be someone other than Gabriel, for certain devils imitate him and by so doing can mislead and corrupt some men. This can result in a man becoming confused and even crazy whereas before he had been of sound mind.’” (Ibn Kathir, The Life of the Prophet Muhammad)
Muhammad | Frontline Apologetics

As far as squeezing Gabriel squeezing him:
“The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me…” Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3
Muhammad | Frontline Apologetics
'Whilst I was asleep, with a coverlet of silk brocade whereon was some writing, the angel Gabriel appeared to me and said, "Read!" I said, "I do not read." He pressed me with the coverlets so tightly that I thought 'twas death. Then he let me go, and said, "Read!"... So I read aloud, and he departed from me at last.
According to a tradition reported by his chief biographer, Muhammad ibn Ishaq
Mohammid in Mecca by Will Durant

Sources:
The Mizan ul haqq, or, Balance of truth - Carl Gottlieb Pfander - Google Books
Muhammad | Frontline Apologetics
Muhammad & Islam : Stories not told before - By* Mohammad Asghar
Mohammid in Mecca by Will Durant

 

[F0uad]

Well good job by mixing your arguments, sources and still not mentioning all the sources and there reference's to bad your to lazy to figure these things out for yourself with all respect. I hope after this post i can take the offensive for once?

I will start with your last post since the one before it makes no sense and isn't worth replying on.

Thoughts of Suicide, terror, and that a Jinn had possesed Muhammad:

His wife Khudeija - (Karen Armstrong, op. cit. p. 137 ff).
Khudeija feared that he must have been possessed by an evil Jinn's spirits,
Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461
Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3
Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad
(Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p.73-75)
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 452).
(Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 73-75).

I never discarded that Mohammed(saws) thought of it being a jin i actually supported that idea since its mentioned and why in that time they believed that anything that was unnatural was probably a devil or spirit now lets examine the things you quoted.

You quoted several people however you didn't quote the ''hadith'' they used so i will be only replying on the Hadith references.

Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461 only shows that he(saws) was afraid.

Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3 nowhere in this hadith does Khadija(pbuh) says or gives a indication that mohammed(saws) was possessed your claim is contradicting the text when mohammed(saws) said: "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 452 uh not sure what this has to do with anything.. Maybe you meant 451?

Muhammad being a false prophet:

Professor Fazlur Rahman is one among the prominent Muslim scholars.
S. 25:8 Y. Ali
S. 26:153 Y. Ali
S. 44:14 Sher Ali
(MacDonald, The Religious Attitude and Life in Islam, p. 33).
(Watt, Bell's Introduction to the Qur'an, p. 23).
Abu Talib

Lol how many people thought/think that Jesus(pbuh) was a false prophet/messiah/bewitched/possessed and still do?

Thinking that quranic verses are going to show you that mohammed(saws) is a false prophet is ridiculous that's why i am asking you to actually read something before clicking copy/paste.

Surah 25
7/9:
And they say: "What sort of an apostle is this, who eats food, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? "Or (Why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment?" The wicked say: "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched."
See what kinds of comparisons they make for thee! But they have gone astray, and never a way will they be able to find!

This is proof of mohammed(saws) being a false prophet?

Surah 26
153/158:
They said: "Thou art only one of those bewitched!
"Thou art no more than a mortal like us: then bring us a Sign, if thou tellest the truth!"
He said: "Here is a she-camel: she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.
"Touch her not with harm, lest the Penalty of a Great Day seize you."
But they ham-strung her: then did they become full of regrets.
But the Penalty seized them. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

Well clearly there was a sign that came true to confirm hes prophet-hood, even if there wasn't one it would proof nothing.

Surah 44
12/15:
(They will say"Our Lord! remove the Penalty from us, for we do really believe!"
How shall the message be (effectual) for them, seeing that an Apostle explaining things clearly has (already) come to them,-
Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"
We shall indeed remove the Penalty for a while, (but) truly ye will revert (to your ways).

We can clearly see that your argument what was started by Arab pagans is now used by Christians as yourself.

Convulsions and seizures at the time of revelation:

His wife Khudeija
His personal biographers (the oldest called "hired biographers")- from (Martin Ling, op. cit, p. 245)
Aisha
Zaid

No reference's..

Foaming at the mouth and ranting and raving:

(mizanul MizanuŸl Haqq, page 345)
Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3
Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461
Abu Harira

What is mizanul mizanuyl haqq?

Well i have replied on both these Hadiths already and both don't mention foaming at the mouth, ranting or raving read it yourself: Sahih Bukhari volume 1 scroll down to Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: the 4,54,461 is included it starts at Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari

Strange noises when "Gabriel" came:
Harith ibn Hashem
(mizanul MizanuŸl Haqq, page 345)
Zeid Thabib
Abu Harira

Strange noises proofs nothing also no references again.

Strange trance like states:

Sahih Muslim 26,5395
Sahih Al-Bukhari 5,58,170
Sahih Al-Bukhari 1,1,3
(Halabieh, 1, page 75)
(Halabieh, 1, page 98)
(Sahih al-Bukhari, 1, page 96)
Aiesha

Sahih Muslim 26,5395 Read it yourself and tell me if you find any possibility of a trance...
Sahih Al-bukhari 1,96 Also doesn't mention any trance or gives any indication of it.
Sahih Al-Bukhari 1,1,3 This hadith again read it yourself and tell me if he was under a trance..
Sahih Al-Bukhari 5,58,170 How is this a trance? He(saws) was building a mosque.. you clearly haven't read what you just copied.

That Muhammad had been treated for fits and seizures even before the cave:

Ibn Ishaq
His wife Khudeija

So? No references but what is the point?

My conclusion is that you aren't serious in this discussion you just copied a list of a website without making your own point or actually have read into the text itself you said in your previous post:

Yes the sources will be researched as soon as I have time.

Let me ask you two questions

1. If Mohammed(saws) was possessed that would mean everything that he said about Jesus(pbuh) being a messiah/prophet/messenger and hes mother(pbuh) being the purest women on earth (jewish woman) was inspired by the devil according to you?

2. How can you proof that Paul/Saul, John, Mark, Matthew weren't inspired by the devil instead of the holy-spirit?

 

[1robin]

Well good job by mixing your arguments, sources and still not mentioning all the sources and there reference's to bad your to lazy to figure these things out for yourself with all respect. I hope after this post i can take the offensive for once?

I will start with your last post since the one before it makes no sense and isn't worth replying on.

I never discarded that Mohammed(saws) thought of it being a jin i actually supported that idea since its mentioned and why in that time they believed that anything that was unnatural was probably a devil or spirit now lets examine the things you quoted.

You quoted several people however you didn't quote the ''hadith'' they used so i will be only replying on the Hadith references.

Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461 only shows that he(saws) was afraid.

Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3 nowhere in this hadith does Khadija(pbuh) says or gives a indication that mohammed(saws) was possessed your claim is contradicting the text when mohammed(saws) said: "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 452 uh not sure what this has to do with anything.. Maybe you meant 451?

Lol how many people thought/think that Jesus(pbuh) was a false prophet/messiah/bewitched/possessed and still do?

Thinking that quranic verses are going to show you that mohammed(saws) is a false prophet is ridiculous that's why i am asking you to actually read something before clicking copy/paste.

Surah 25
7/9:
And they say: "What sort of an apostle is this, who eats food, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? "Or (Why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment?" The wicked say: "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched."
See what kinds of comparisons they make for thee! But they have gone astray, and never a way will they be able to find!

This is proof of mohammed(saws) being a false prophet?

Surah 26
153/158:
They said: "Thou art only one of those bewitched!
"Thou art no more than a mortal like us: then bring us a Sign, if thou tellest the truth!"
He said: "Here is a she-camel: she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.
"Touch her not with harm, lest the Penalty of a Great Day seize you."
But they ham-strung her: then did they become full of regrets.
But the Penalty seized them. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

Well clearly there was a sign that came true to confirm hes prophet-hood, even if there wasn't one it would proof nothing.

Surah 44
12/15:
(They will say"Our Lord! remove the Penalty from us, for we do really believe!"
How shall the message be (effectual) for them, seeing that an Apostle explaining things clearly has (already) come to them,-
Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"
We shall indeed remove the Penalty for a while, (but) truly ye will revert (to your ways).

We can clearly see that your argument what was started by Arab pagans is now used by Christians as yourself.

No reference's..

What is mizanul mizanuyl haqq?

Well i have replied on both these Hadiths already and both don't mention foaming at the mouth, ranting or raving read it yourself: Sahih Bukhari volume 1 scroll down to Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: the 4,54,461 is included it starts at Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari

Strange noises proofs nothing also no references again.

Sahih Muslim 26,5395 Read it yourself and tell me if you find any possibility of a trance...
Sahih Al-bukhari 1,96 Also doesn't mention any trance or gives any indication of it.
Sahih Al-Bukhari 1,1,3 This hadith again read it yourself and tell me if he was under a trance..
Sahih Al-Bukhari 5,58,170 How is this a trance? He(saws) was building a mosque.. you clearly haven't read what you just copied.

So? No references but what is the point?

My conclusion is that you aren't serious in this discussion you just copied a list of a website without making your own point or actually have read into the text itself you said in your previous post:

Let me ask you two questions

1. If Mohammed(saws) was possessed that would mean everything that he said about Jesus(pbuh) being a messiah/prophet/messenger and hes mother(pbuh) being the purest women on earth (jewish woman) was inspired by the devil according to you?

2. How can you proof that Paul/Saul, John, Mark, Matthew weren't inspired by the devil instead of the holy-spirit?

Sorry I saw this too late today. I will try monday. Glad you are back no other Muslim will even attempt to address this (or at least that I asked). Have a good weekend.

 

[1robin]

Well good job by mixing your arguments, sources and still not mentioning all the sources and there reference's to bad your to lazy to figure these things out for yourself with all respect. I hope after this post i can take the offensive for once?

I will start with your last post since the one before it makes no sense and isn't worth replying on.

I never discarded that Mohammed(saws) thought of it being a jin i actually supported that idea since its mentioned and why in that time they believed that anything that was unnatural was probably a devil or spirit now lets examine the things you quoted.

You quoted several people however you didn't quote the ''hadith'' they used so i will be only replying on the Hadith references.

Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461 only shows that he(saws) was afraid.

Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3 nowhere in this hadith does Khadija(pbuh) says or gives a indication that mohammed(saws) was possessed your claim is contradicting the text when mohammed(saws) said: "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 452 uh not sure what this has to do with anything.. Maybe you meant 451?

Lol how many people thought/think that Jesus(pbuh) was a false prophet/messiah/bewitched/possessed and still do?

Thinking that quranic verses are going to show you that mohammed(saws) is a false prophet is ridiculous that's why i am asking you to actually read something before clicking copy/paste.

Surah 25
7/9:
And they say: "What sort of an apostle is this, who eats food, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? "Or (Why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment?" The wicked say: "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched."
See what kinds of comparisons they make for thee! But they have gone astray, and never a way will they be able to find!

This is proof of mohammed(saws) being a false prophet?

Surah 26
153/158:
They said: "Thou art only one of those bewitched!
"Thou art no more than a mortal like us: then bring us a Sign, if thou tellest the truth!"
He said: "Here is a she-camel: she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.
"Touch her not with harm, lest the Penalty of a Great Day seize you."
But they ham-strung her: then did they become full of regrets.
But the Penalty seized them. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

Well clearly there was a sign that came true to confirm hes prophet-hood, even if there wasn't one it would proof nothing.

Surah 44
12/15:
(They will say"Our Lord! remove the Penalty from us, for we do really believe!"
How shall the message be (effectual) for them, seeing that an Apostle explaining things clearly has (already) come to them,-
Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"
We shall indeed remove the Penalty for a while, (but) truly ye will revert (to your ways).

We can clearly see that your argument what was started by Arab pagans is now used by Christians as yourself.

No reference's..

What is mizanul mizanuyl haqq?

Well i have replied on both these Hadiths already and both don't mention foaming at the mouth, ranting or raving read it yourself: Sahih Bukhari volume 1 scroll down to Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: the 4,54,461 is included it starts at Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari

Strange noises proofs nothing also no references again.

Sahih Muslim 26,5395 Read it yourself and tell me if you find any possibility of a trance...
Sahih Al-bukhari 1,96 Also doesn't mention any trance or gives any indication of it.
Sahih Al-Bukhari 1,1,3 This hadith again read it yourself and tell me if he was under a trance..
Sahih Al-Bukhari 5,58,170 How is this a trance? He(saws) was building a mosque.. you clearly haven't read what you just copied.

So? No references but what is the point?

My conclusion is that you aren't serious in this discussion you just copied a list of a website without making your own point or actually have read into the text itself you said in your previous post:

Let me ask you two questions

1. If Mohammed(saws) was possessed that would mean everything that he said about Jesus(pbuh) being a messiah/prophet/messenger and hes mother(pbuh) being the purest women on earth (jewish woman) was inspired by the devil according to you?

2. How can you proof that Paul/Saul, John, Mark, Matthew weren't inspired by the devil instead of the holy-spirit?

F0uad. Debateing someone on an issue who decides what sources are applicable independantly of showing why others are inapplicable makes a debate a pointless exercise. At least 50% of you rebuttal has been to deny sources or demand I invent a time machine and bring back the guy who invented a word, even though scholars know they were in use by earlier cultures out side Arabia. It has been so long since I put all this together that I gave up on it and deleted my search history concerning it. It came from many places and took a long time to assemple. I do not have time at present to redo it all and it would probably be dismissed on technicalities anyway. This appears futile, but if you want to critique the Bible I atleast will not dismiss sources without a good reason and demand unreasonable proof and reject well known facts. So at least that would allow for debate. It is up to you and I await your posts.

 

[F0uad]

Which source's did i deny?? Most of the arguments are based on individual names however you forget to mention the references where they made these claims so how can i reply on a name?

Clearly the website you have copied is lying to you since none of the things they said is mentioned in the sources to start with.

Lets examine them ourselves nowhere in Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461, Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3 and Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 452. is there a indication of Suicide or terror.

Then you said that according Surah. 25:8, 26:153 and 44:14 that there is a indication that Mohammed(saws) is a false-prophet while there is none.

Then you claimed that Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3 and Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461 mentiones Foaming at the mouth and ranting and raving while they don't.

Then your argument was that there were strange noises when Gabriel came so even ''if'' there was any noise does that mean he/it is a devil? This argument had also no references.

Then you finally used some references however none of these gives a indication of a trance Sahih Muslim 26,5395, Sahih Al-Bukhari 5,58,170, Sahih Al-Bukhari 1,1,3, Sahih al-Bukhari, 1, page 96 nowhere is there a trance read them yourselves if you don't belief my word for it.

Then you claimed that Mohammed(saws) was treated for fits and seizures before the revelation at the cave however you again give no references and it would directly contradict your own statement that he was possessed by the angel.

I though you knew what were authentic sources for Sunni muslims let me give you a list.

Quran
Bukhari
Sahih muslim
(Some of Tabari)
(Some of Ibn Isaq)

I asked two questions hopefully you can reply on them before we open a new topic.

 

[1robin]

Which source's did i deny?? Most of the arguments are based on individual names however you forget to mention the references where they made these claims so how can i reply on a name?

I was just going to let this go. It has been so long ago I can't remeber all the places where I researched this from.

Clearly the website you have copied is lying to you since none of the things they said is mentioned in the sources to start with.

I did not put a site in my last post. The other posts were to long ago to dig up again. I have lost the familiarity I had with the issue at the time and don't even want to go through the effort again.

Lets examine them ourselves nowhere in Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461, Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3 and Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 452. is there a indication of Suicide or terror.
Then you said that according Surah. 25:8, 26:153 and 44:14 that there is a indication that Mohammed(saws) is a false-prophet while there is none.
Then you claimed that Sahih Bukhari 1,1,3 and Sahih Al-Bukhari 4,54,461 mentiones Foaming at the mouth and ranting and raving while they don't.
Then your argument was that there were strange noises when Gabriel came so even ''if'' there was any noise does that mean he/it is a devil? This argument had also no references.
Then you finally used some references however none of these gives a indication of a trance Sahih Muslim 26,5395, Sahih Al-Bukhari 5,58,170, Sahih Al-Bukhari 1,1,3, Sahih al-Bukhari, 1, page 96 nowhere is there a trance read them yourselves if you don't belief my word for it.
Then you claimed that Mohammed(saws) was treated for fits and seizures before the revelation at the cave however you again give no references and it would directly contradict your own statement that he was possessed by the angel.

This concerns the same issues that I was dropping. You and the other couple of guys have satisfied my curiosity as to the nature of the response. I do not want to go through the effort again to wind up with source credibility issues anymore.

I though you knew what were authentic sources for Sunni Muslims let me give you a list.
Quran
Bukhari
Sahih muslim
(Some of Tabari)
(Some of Ibn Isaq)

I may be mistaken F0uad, but I remember asking you about sources before any debate we have had. I did that because Muslim debaters are notorious on the issue. You led me to believe I thought, that you are liberal concerning this, apparently I was mistaken or you have resorted to being so recently and have even restricted them to Sunni sources. Answer this honestly. Why should I as a Christian feel restricted to your approved texts? I would gladly reject any that are proven unreliable, but without a convincing argument for that it seems invalid to expect others to adopt your standards. I do not do so in defending the Bible. If your site is false I will be able to show that in the claim. I have never rejected a site because of Bias, I have never given a list of approved sites, because I think that is illogical and disingenuous. I debate claims not sources. Even in some of the worst works of history (Herodotus’ on Thermopylae or Alexander the great’s biography are filled with accurate facts).

I asked two questions hopefully you can reply on them before we open a new topic.

I hope I did.

 

[F0uad]

I was just going to let this go. It has been so long ago I can't remeber all the places where I researched this from.

Well you mentioned all the sources in the post or is it just that you were to lazy to do any real research?

I did not put a site in my last post. The other posts were to long ago to dig up again. I have lost the familiarity I had with the issue at the time and don't even want to go through the effort again.

Well you did the website: Muhammad | Frontline Apologetics you just scrolled down and copied/pasted Shamoun arguments without looking into it he is well known for lying and deceiving people clearly he made you look bad this time.

This concerns the same issues that I was dropping. You and the other couple of guys have satisfied my curiosity as to the nature of the response. I do not want to go through the effort again to wind up with source credibility issues anymore.

You don't have to we can drop it

I may be mistaken F0uad, but I remember asking you about sources before any debate we have had. I did that because Muslim debaters are notorious on the issue. You led me to believe I thought, that you are liberal concerning this, apparently I was mistaken or you have resorted to being so recently and have even restricted them to Sunni sources. Answer this honestly. Why should I as a Christian feel restricted to your approved texts? I would gladly reject any that are proven unreliable, but without a convincing argument for that it seems invalid to expect others to adopt your standards. I do not do so in defending the Bible. If your site is false I will be able to show that in the claim. I have never rejected a site because of Bias, I have never given a list of approved sites, because I think that is illogical and disingenuous. I debate claims not sources. Even in some of the worst works of history (Herodotus’ on Thermopylae or Alexander the great’s biography are filled with accurate facts).

Well i thought you knew what kind of sources Sunni's used, i know what sources Protestant and Catholic in general use. You don't have to use my approved text but i can challenge any text that is not approved by the Sunni Majority while you cannot do the same within the Christian scriptures since the Sunni's had created a developed technique. So your saying that i can use any gospel or other source that is seen as unauthentic to discuss a Christian teaching? That would make no sense at all to me.

I hope I did.

You haven't i hope you can reply on them so can we start a new subject if wanted.

1. If Mohammed(saws) was possessed that would mean everything that he said about Jesus(pbuh) being a messiah/prophet/messenger and hes mother(pbuh) being the purest women on earth (jewish woman) was inspired by the devil according to you?

2. How can you proof that Paul/Saul, John, Mark, Matthew weren't inspired by the devil instead of the holy-spirit and if you cannot proof it how can you proof that Mohammed(saws) was?

 

[1robin]

Well you mentioned all the sources in the post or is it just that you were too lazy to do any real research?

I am lazy but that had nothing to do with my posts, I am not sure what you mean here.

Well you did the website: Muhammad | Frontline Apologetics you just scrolled down and copied/pasted Shamoun arguments without looking into it he is well known for lying and deceiving people clearly he made you look bad this time.

Saying he is well known for lying is not a valid argument. I am under no obligation to concur with that assessment. If we were still pursuing this then you would have to show that he in fact was lying in that quote. It is not a meaningful tactic to just declare this or that site or person a bad source. You could be doing that by preference or to avoid what he says and that is precisely what Muslims are famous for. I am not applying this to you and don't even want to get into it and as I can't remember all the sites I used then I am just dropping it. .

Well i thought you knew what kind of sources Sunni's used, i know what sources Protestant and Catholic in general use. You don't have to use my approved text but i can challenge any text that is not approved by the Sunni Majority while you cannot do the same within the Christian scriptures since the Sunni's had created a developed technique. So your saying that i can use any gospel or other source that is seen as unauthentic to discuss a Christian teaching? That would make no sense at all to me.

I can't remember where it is but I asked you about sources and came away with the impression that you were not as devoted to what it is that you are allowed to accept. To confine a discussion to certain texts is not how debate works as I am sure you know. You may of course challenge any claim I make but it should be more impressive than that site is biased or that guy is a liar. You need to show that the claim is false. You can use any source you want but if the scholarly conclusion is that the source let's say gnostic and did not come from an eye witness it will not overcome statements that did. Eliminating sources up front is a different matter than establishing which claim is stronger but you are free to pull from anything.
You haven't i hope you can reply on them so can we start a new subject if wanted.

1. If Mohammed(saws) was possessed that would mean everything that he said about Jesus(pbuh) being a messiah/prophet/messenger and hes mother(pbuh) being the purest women on earth (jewish woman) was inspired by the devil according to you?

This is not accurate. The Bible clearly claims that Satan comes as an angel of light. It says he even believes God and the scripture exists. He quoted them to tempt Christ. From my studies on spiritual warfare I have learned that Satan many times tells people what they want to hear, especially up front to gain trust, he even tells them good things and helps, and he always throws enough truth in to maintain allegiance. That could explain those statements. Another explanation is that Muhammad had two main sources: heretical gnostic "Christian and Jewish texts" and whatever this Jab riel was feeding him. Mix the false (but based on) Biblical stories and Satan's use of truth to gain trust and it is a perfect description of what I find in the Quran. I think Satan's greatest tactic would be to make a lie so close to the truth of God but missing the most crucial elements that it is mistaken for God's truth but can't save anyone. I could go on but this is the general idea.

2. How can you proof that Paul/Saul, John, Mark, Matthew weren't inspired by the devil instead of the holy-spirit and if you cannot proof it how can you proof that Mohammed (saws) was?

Ok, this is an easy one. We have four independent testimonies that are consistent. There is only one with Muhammad. Multiple attestations to the same satanic teaching is far more unlikely than one. They knew Christ and Christ never mentioned this with exception of Peter's trying to stop Christ from dyeing. Muhammad did not. The Holy spirit validated their testimony on many occasions. Satan cannot cast out Satan yet the disciples did cast him out. Muhammad did none of these things. The disciples did not fight 68 wars and raid caravans, Muhammad did. The disciples did not marry pre-pubescent girls, Muhammad did. The disciples never chopped any ones hands and feet off, Muhammad did. The disciples did not have any experiences with "angels" that perfectly match the description of satanic possession or influence, Muhammad did. I could keep going indefinitely but it will not matter. There is no evidence or reasoning that can possibly change a mind as committed as yours. I have no idea about you specifically but Islam where it is the dominant practice in the region uses mind washing techniques I learned about only in the military and practices coercion. Neither of which should exist in a true religion and both of which produce loyalty that no evidence (usually) can overcome. Islam is exactly what I would think a satanic religion would be and do. The fact that it requires methodical repetition that renders content less important, is drilled into kids continuously starting very young before they know enough to resist, is in many places a worldly kingdom instead of Christ's spiritual one, and uses threats to maintain compliance. It is like psychological warfare 101. Please remember that I am in no way attempting to offend you and I did not claim to know that I am correct about these issues but sometimes wonder just what a Muslim would say about things that seem so obvious to me. It is just curiosity and no offense intended and I do not think you are necessarily a product of what I mention here and there. You have been mostly very civil and intelligent. Bring on your next issue if you desire. Shalom.

 

[F0uad]

I am lazy but that had nothing to do with my posts, I am not sure what you mean here.

Well that you actually stop quoting things without reading them.

Saying he is well known for lying is not a valid argument. I am under no obligation to concur with that assessment. If we were still pursuing this then you would have to show that he in fact was lying in that quote. It is not a meaningful tactic to just declare this or that site or person a bad source. You could be doing that by preference or to avoid what he says and that is precisely what Muslims are famous for. I am not applying this to you and don't even want to get into it and as I can't remember all the sites I used then I am just dropping it. .

Well he clearly did lie to you personally since you believed hes word for it, he made claims that these things happened according Islamic sources such as bukhari yet they are not there so don't you consider that as lying?

I can't remember where it is but I asked you about sources and came away with the impression that you were not as devoted to what it is that you are allowed to accept. To confine a discussion to certain texts is not how debate works as I am sure you know. You may of course challenge any claim I make but it should be more impressive than that site is biased or that guy is a liar. You need to show that the claim is false. You can use any source you want but if the scholarly conclusion is that the source let's say gnostic and did not come from an eye witness it will not overcome statements that did. Eliminating sources up front is a different matter than establishing which claim is stronger but you are free to pull from anything.
You haven't i hope you can reply on them so can we start a new subject if wanted.

Well if you actually took some time and stop being the lazy guy here you would know he was lying since the text itself says different things then what he is claiming.

This is not accurate. The Bible clearly claims that Satan comes as an angel of light. It says he even believes God and the scripture exists. He quoted them to tempt Christ. From my studies on spiritual warfare I have learned that Satan many times tells people what they want to hear, especially up front to gain trust, he even tells them good things and helps, and he always throws enough truth in to maintain allegiance. That could explain those statements. Another explanation is that Muhammad had two main sources: heretical gnostic "Christian and Jewish texts" and whatever this Jab riel was feeding him. Mix the false (but based on) Biblical stories and Satan's use of truth to gain trust and it is a perfect description of what I find in the Quran. I think Satan's greatest tactic would be to make a lie so close to the truth of God but missing the most crucial elements that it is mistaken for God's truth but can't save anyone. I could go on but this is the general idea.

I never asked about a biblical perspective i asked for a personal opinion about the matter so the devil does inspire people according to you to say these things then how is this different from Paul or any other so called gospel writer?

Ok, this is an easy one. We have four independent testimonies that are consistent. There is only one with Muhammad. Multiple attestations to the same satanic teaching is far more unlikely than one. They knew Christ and Christ never mentioned this with exception of Peter's trying to stop Christ from dyeing. Muhammad did not. The Holy spirit validated their testimony on many occasions. Satan cannot cast out Satan yet the disciples did cast him out. Muhammad did none of these things. The disciples did not fight 68 wars and raid caravans, Muhammad did. The disciples did not marry pre-pubescent girls, Muhammad did. The disciples never chopped any ones hands and feet off, Muhammad did. The disciples did not have any experiences with "angels" that perfectly match the description of satanic possession or influence, Muhammad did. I could keep going indefinitely but it will not matter. There is no evidence or reasoning that can possibly change a mind as committed as yours. I have no idea about you specifically but Islam where it is the dominant practice in the region uses mind washing techniques I learned about only in the military and practices coercion. Neither of which should exist in a true religion and both of which produce loyalty that no evidence (usually) can overcome. Islam is exactly what I would think a satanic religion would be and do. The fact that it requires methodical repetition that renders content less important, is drilled into kids continuously starting very young before they know enough to resist, is in many places a worldly kingdom instead of Christ's spiritual one, and uses threats to maintain compliance. It is like psychological warfare 101. Please remember that I am in no way attempting to offend you and I did not claim to know that I am correct about these issues but sometimes wonder just what a Muslim would say about things that seem so obvious to me. It is just curiosity and no offense intended and I do not think you are necessarily a product of what I mention here and there. You have been mostly very civil and intelligent. Bring on your next issue if you desire. Shalom.

Ok your being ridiculous and childish i will stop here to bad you cannot answer a legitimate question, and next time take look at the mirror before offending a other religion.

 

[1robin]

Well that you actually stop quoting things without reading them.

Well he clearly did lie to you personally since you believed hes word for it, he made claims that these things happened according Islamic sources such as bukhari yet they are not there so don't you consider that as lying?

Well if you actually took some time and stop being the lazy guy here you would know he was lying since the text itself says different things then what he is claiming.


I never asked about a biblical perspective i asked for a personal opinion about the matter so the devil does inspire people according to you to say these things then how is this different from Paul or any other so called gospel writer?

Ok your being ridiculous and childish i will stop here to bad you cannot answer a legitimate question, and next time take look at the mirror before offending a other religion.

I do not think you belong in the kitchen.

 

[Bismillah]

So I've been pretty busy since you approached me, my apologies.

From what I remember you wanted to debate with me whether the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was possesed by a demon.

To start with I'll put the ball in your court. What is your criterion for possession? Let's start there afterwards we can discuss your proof as to the possession of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon, himself.

 

[1robin]

So I've been pretty busy since you approached me, my apologies.

From what I remember you wanted to debate with me whether the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was possesed by a demon.

To start with I'll put the ball in your court. What is your criterion for possession? Let's start there afterwards we can discuss your proof as to the possession of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon, himself.

Wow. I had completely forgotten. It will take me a bit to recalibrate and then I will post what you have requested. Glad you are back.

 

[Bismillah]

Wow. I had completely forgotten. It will take me a bit to recalibrate and then I will post what you have requested. Glad you are back.

Salaam alaikum, thank you for your well wishes take your time to format and map out your thoughts.

 

[1robin]

Salaam alaikum, thank you for your well wishes take your time to format and map out your thoughts.

Hello Bismallah, It has been so long since I posted this that I have deleted all my links and sources from my CPU memory. I will post my original claims and see what you can do with them but first I want to get a few things clarified.

1. I do not believe the Quran is from God. I do not like many things Muslim's do but I like many individual Muslims I know personally and take people one at a time. I believe both the Quran and Muhammad are not from God and there for from man or Satan. I make arguments that attempt to show that. I realize that this may be offensive and I regret that and if you do not wish to discuss them I understand. However please know that I do not say anything with the intention to offend. I say them because I believe them and nothing more. I take people one at a time and you seem respectful, polite, and honest and so I wished to state this up front so you may terminate the discussion up at this point if you wish.
2. The second is that I have been debating and following debates for years and know very well that Muslim's have determined what works they will accept and what they won't. Do you agree that no Christian is obligated to only accept what Islam has determined is ok? I have no problem with you proving any claim I make wrong but consider the rejection of sources themselves (because they are Christian or thought to be unflattering to Islam) as illegitimate. If they are shown to be untrue I will be happy to retract them. Deal? I will go ahead and post my original inquiry but if these two conditions are unacceptable feel free to ignore the post its self. Shalom.


My claim is that there is good reason to believe that Muhammad's revelations that began in the cave were demonic or psychological. I have always found this interesting but it takes too long to hash out normally but is good for this thread.
In receiving the Qur’an, the Islamic tradition tells us that Muhammad used to go into convulsions similar to epileptic seizures, break out in cold sweat, and his mouth used to foam. This indicates that Muhammad was either afflicted with epilepsy or another neurological illness, or he was demon possessed. In fact, Jesus exorcized demons that had tormented the possessed persons in this very same way: "Suddenly a man from the multitude cried out, saying, "Teacher, I implore You, look on my son, for he is my only child. And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him. So I implored Your disciples to cast it out, but they could not." Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father. And they were all amazed at the majesty of God …" (Luke 9: 38-43). There are striking similarities between the symptoms that boy suffered from and what used to happen to Muhammad when he claimed divine revelation. Instead, was it a satanic inspiration all along?
The Qur'an is not a miracle; linguistic, scientific and historical problems, contradictions, abrogation, and satanic inspiration in the Qur'an
Since the first tactic of the Islamic scholars I have seen is to dismiss anything that isn't flattering by saying they do not accept it. I can understand that for things that are not known very well. Muhammad's fits are very well attested in many texts and in numerous examples. Here are a few:
The method of revelation was not always the same according to Islamic tradition, over the years to follow, when Mohammad received revelation of the Quran, he would faint, foam at the mouth and tremble at times. The book True Guidance Part IV, records the Hadiths regarding the manner which Mohammad received his revelations,
The authoritative Hadith (Tradition) relate that Muhammad used to faint whenever revelations came to him. It is claimed he used to act like a drunkard (See Al-Sirah al-Nabawiya, by Ibn Hisham; chapter on how the revelation came). In his book, Al-Quran al-Majid, Darwaza claims that Muhammad was taken out of this world. Abu Huraira says that "whenever Muhammad received revelation, he was overwhelmed by trembling." Another account says: "He became distressed, foamng at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel" (Ahmad b. Hanbal I, 34, 464, VI. 163)…..Umar b. al-Khattab said: "When revelation descended upon Muhammad, one could hear it near his face like the humming of bees" (Ahmad b. Hanbal, I. 34)[6]

Mohammed and his attempted Suicide during the period of silence (610-613)​

Following the first appearance of the "angel" and the proclamation of his "Call" there was a period of silence for about three-years. During this period, Mohammad was distraught and often thought about suicide, wishing to throw himself off the mountains of Hira or Qubays.
What is the Qu'ran ( Koran ) (Quran)
Just by the number of Muslim sources and by the principle of embarrassment these accounts show that his physical condition is well established as it concerns his revelations. Since this mimics in exact detail what is said in the bible about demon possession, known as common symptoms for hundreds of years of demon possession, and is the very inverse of the occurrences of Gabriel in the bible.
A comparison between the Quran and the bible as it concerns Gabriel;
The bible: In both instances where Gabriel shows up and delivers a message he immediately said who he was, and/or where he was from and to not be afraid.
The Quran: The first appearance terrified Muhammad; he did not know who it was or where he was from.
He suggested it was a Jinn I believe and was talked into the opposite conclusion by his first wife. (that last part about his wife came from memory and it's accuracy is unknown).
The bible: The message was delivered in a comforting manner was easily understandable and resulted and is consistent with the entire bible.
The Quran: Gabriel causes numerous examples of fear, trembling, foaming at the mouth, noises of camels and bees to come from Muhammad, suicidal thoughts, and messages that conflict and contradict the bible.
At the very least these are not the same supernatural beings. They have the completely opposite effects and results.
The last possibility is epilepsy. His experiences are consistent with this and epilepsy is known to produce vivid religious visions. I do not regard this as likely for other reason but I do not see any inconsistency for a malevolent spirit troubling Muhammad plus gnostic texts and per-Arabic tradition producing the Quran.
I know this is a lot to review but the claim is simple. That Muhammad had contact with a or several evil entities not Gabriel. I apologize if anything about what I said that seems disrespectful but there is no other way to state this issue.