F0uad and 1robin Koran and Bible

[1robin]

The Bible vs the Koran preservation and accuracy.

 

[F0uad]

Yes i found it.

 

[1robin]

Yes i found it.

Ok, I will think about how to begin tonight and make my first post tomorrow. I have re-answered your Jesus' dyeing issue I hope this one is more satasfactory. Peace out.

 

[F0uad]

Ok ill be here.

 

[1robin]

Ok ill be here.

Ok Mr F0uad. I think the first thing we aught to do is lay out some positions and rules as I believe you suggested that.
Since I would like to address the Quran for a while as I am burned out on defending the bible, I will ask you what you believe concerning the Quran.

1. Do you believe the modern Quran is perfectly accurate with the original revealed to Muhammad?

2. Do you believe that Arabic is the language of God?

3. Do you believe that the revelations in the Quran are written on tablets in heaven?

4. Do you believe that the Quran is completely written in perfect Arabic?

5. Do you believe that Muhammad was sinless?

6. Do you believe the Quran has any material borrowed from a secondary prexisting source?

7. Do you believe that the Quran superceeds the bible in all areas of dissagreement?

I guess that is enough.

The only rule I have is to apply consistent standards between the bible and Quran, keep an open mind, and try to be polite. I will do the same.

 

[F0uad]

Ok Mr F0uad. I think the first thing we aught to do is lay out some positions and rules as I believe you suggested that.
Since I would like to address the Quran for a while as I am burned out on defending the bible, I will ask you what you believe concerning the Quran.

Fair Enough.

1. Do you believe the modern Quran is perfectly accurate with the original revealed to Muhammad?

I don't belief Mohammed(saws) was given a book but revelation wherein hes companions gathered the materials where they wrote it on and later Abu Bakr(one of the most trustworthy companions) compiled it into a book wherein later Uthman(a trustworthy companion) with the committee of companions canonized the original Hafs Dialect and all agreed.

2. Do you believe that Arabic is the language of God?

I don't belief God has a language but he knows all languages for example he spoke to Abraham(p) in a language we don't know he spoke to Moses(p) in Hebrew he spoke to Jesus(p) in Aramaic.

3. Do you believe that the revelations in the Quran are written on tablets in heaven?

Pretty much.

4. Do you believe that the Quran is completely written in perfect Arabic?

Yes however there are words that also have a meaning in Hebrew or Greek.

5. Do you believe that Muhammad was sinless?

No because the Quran and Hadith tells us he wasn't sinless.

6. Do you believe the Quran has any material borrowed from a secondary prexisting source?

No.

7. Do you believe that the Quran superceeds the bible in all areas of dissagreement?

Obviously because i belief its from god and not tampered with.

I guess that is enough.

The only rule I have is to apply consistent standards between the bible and Quran, keep an open mind, and try to be polite. I will do the same.

I will try off-course however i don't want this discussion to be only on the preservation and accuracy of books but also teachings.

 

[1robin]

Fair Enough.

You are free of course to lay out any additional requests in general.

Yes

Very well.

I don't belief God has a language but he knows all languages for example he spoke to Abraham(p) in a language we don't know he spoke to Moses(p) in Hebrew he spoke to Jesus(p) in Aramaic.

What language are the tablets of the Quran in heaven written in?

Pretty much.

Very well.

Yes however there are words that also have a meaning in Hebrew or Greek.

But the words themselves are 100% arabic words correct?

No.

I thought all prophets in Islam are considered sinless. Is this simply a title or label not an actual fact.

No.

Very well.

Obviously because i belief its from god and not tampered with.

Fair enough.

I will try off-course however i don't want this discussion to be only on the preservation and accuracy of books but also teachings.

Give me a little while to question you on the quran and we will discuss whatever you wish.

 

[F0uad]

What language are the tablets of the Quran in heaven written in?

I personally think its Arabic if that makes sense but to be honest i don't know its just a assumption i will have to research this specific subject more to have a clear answer. If you want know why i think its Arabic i am willing to share some references.

But the words themselves are 100% arabic words correct?

There are chapters in the Quran that start with word/letters that have no meaning in Arabic or other languages these letters/words are only known to God (This is the idea behind it)

I thought all prophets in Islam are considered sinless. Is this simply a title or label not an actual fact.

I don't know any title or label that assumes they are sinless. In Islam that i know off, prophets did sin but these are not sins as compared in the bible though.

Give me a little while to question you on the quran and we will discuss whatever you wish.

Yeah sure, if you want to speak about the preservation or certain verses you can go ahead i will try to answer with my knowledge.

 

[1robin]

I personally think its Arabic if that makes sense but to be honest i don't know its just a assumption i will have to research this specific subject more to have a clear answer. If you want know why i think its Arabic i am willing to share some references.

That is perfectly acceptable.

There are chapters in the Quran that start with word/letters that have no meaning in Arabic or other languages these letters/words are only known to God (This is the idea behind it)

So it is composed of Arabic and a few other words from an unknown language. Correct?

I don't know any title or label that assumes they are sinless. In Islam that i know off, prophets did sin but these are not sins as compared in the bible though.

I do not either but I have heard several Islamic scholars say that this is the islamic stance. If you do not believe this that is fine.

Yeah sure, if you want to speak about the preservation or certain verses you can go ahead i will try to answer with my knowledge.

I meant to dive in today but will be tied up too much to do it justice. Maybe this weakend or monday.

 

[F0uad]

So it is composed of Arabic and a few other words from an unknown language. Correct?

Actually i am not sure if they are words it seems to me they are letters i don't think they are language that is known to anyone but god they are pronounced as Alif-Laam-Meem but the rest is Arabic. However there are some explanations on this link about Alif-Laam-Meem: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070615013851AAvksrn.

I do not either but I have heard several Islamic scholars say that this is the islamic stance. If you do not believe this that is fine.

I personally never heard this but i don't think they are sinless i can quote the Quran and Hadith to defend this stance.

I meant to dive in today but will be tied up too much to do it justice. Maybe this weakend or monday.

Sure take your time i am here.

 

[1robin]

Actually i am not sure if they are words it seems to me they are letters i don't think they are language that is known to anyone but god they are pronounced as Alif-Laam-Meem but the rest is Arabic. However there are some explanations on this link about Alif-Laam-Meem: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070615013851AAvksrn.

I think you have told me what I need to know.

I personally never heard this but i don't think they are sinless i can quote the Quran and Hadith to defend this stance.

That is fine I will not assume a position you do not agree with.

Sure take your time i am here.

Talk at you soon.

 

[1robin]

Actually i am not sure if they are words it seems to me they are letters i don't think they are language that is known to anyone but god they are pronounced as Alif-Laam-Meem but the rest is Arabic. However there are some explanations on this link about Alif-Laam-Meem: The first word of Quran is ALIF-LAAM-MEEM. What does it mean? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers.

This first one is the one about the Quran being in arabic (only) with the exceptions you mentioned above. There are hundreds of words at this site(274 I think) that are not arabic but are in the Quran:
The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an
This is far too much for you to deal with so I will list a smaller number for you to explain. The reason this is important is because the Quran claims to be in Arabic only (I will accept your examples above) but that is what the Quran claims.

[FONT=Arial,Bold]"We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran" Joseph chapter (Surat Yusuf) 2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]Actually there are 9 quran verses saying that the quran was written in a clear Arabic tongue.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Bold]- "
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Tafaq'a [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Romanian word means" intended to do", as in The Heights chapter (Surat Al-A'raf) 22[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-toar [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]"is a Syrian word means "the mountain", as in the Cow chapter (Surat Al- Baqarah) 63[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Raq'im [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Romanian word means "the tablet" as in The Cave chapter (Surat Al-Kahf) 9[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Ta-Ha [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word as in Ta-Ha chapter[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Senin [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]"is a Hebrew word means "beautiful"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-"[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]As-Sijjîl [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means "the book" as in the Prophets chapter (Surat Al-Anbiya') 104[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Istabrek [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]"is a Persian word means "the thick" as in The Smoke chapter (Surat Ad-Dukhan) 53[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Soundos [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Indian word means" the thin curtain" as in The Smoke chapter (Surat Ad-Dukhan) 53[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Sariah[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Greek word means " a small river" as in Mary chapter (Surat Maryam) 24[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Meshkat [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " a niche in the wall" as in the light chapter(Surat An-Nur)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Jouhan'm [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means " the hell" as in the Spoils of War(Surat Al-Anfal) 36[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Zakât [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means " the tax from money"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Sajjîl [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means "the stony mud"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Ad-Durie [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " a shinning planet"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Nashet-Al lail [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " wake up by night" as in The One wrapped in Garments chapter (Surat Al-Muzzammil) 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- ' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]keflain [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " two folds" as the iron chapter (Surat Al-Hadid)28[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Q'swara [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " the lion" as in The One Enveloped chapter (Surat Al-Muddathir) 51[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Melah Al-Okhra [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Coptic word means "the first religion" as in Saad chapter( Surat saad) 7[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- ' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Wara'hom [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Coptic word means "behind them " as in The Cave chapter (Surat Al-Kahf)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Bata'nha [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Coptic word means " its external look" as in The Most Graciouschapter(Surat Ar-Rahman) 54[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Uho'd [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means " one "[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]As-Sam'd [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means" inclusive of all characters"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Abareeq' [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means "vessels" as in The Event chapter (Surat Al-Waqi'ah) 18[/FONT]​

http://www.fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/46-Episode.pdf

Also consider this:

Sura 26:
192 It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, 193 with it came down the spirit of truth 194 Upon your heart so that you may be one of the warners 195 in clear Arabic speech
196 and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets).

How could the Quran which is declared to be only in Arabic be found in earlier writings written in a different language?

Please refrain from dismissing a claim because of it's source. If the source is as biased as you say then you will quickly be able to show this and I will reject that site myself. I have no desire to show the Quran is wrong if I have to sacrifice truth to do it. I will get into some contradictions that I have always wanted an answer to when this first issue is settled. Good Luck, Shalom.
​

 

[F0uad]

Hey,

‘We know indeed that they say "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic pure and clear.’ (an-Nahl 103)

As its known, the name of words that indicate the meaning sent down to Muhammad (saws) through Jibril (Gabriel) by God Almighty. It was revealed to the heart of the Messenger of Allah (saws) not only as meaning but also as words. As a matter of fact, from the verses that express that the Quran is in Arabic in ten different places in the Quran,

“Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth― To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish, In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.” (ash-Shuara 26/192-195)

“Thus have we sent this down― Arabic Qur'an.” (Ta-Ha 20/113)

“(It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.” (Zumar, 39/28)

“A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail― a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand.” (Fussilat, 41/3) (Yusuf, 12/2; Ra’d, 13/37; an-Nahl, 16/103; ash-Shura, 42/7; az-Zukhruf, 43/3; al-Ahqaf, 46/12) it is understood clearly and definitely that not only the meaning but also the words are included in the content of the concept ‘the Quran’.

The Quran is in Arabic. Some people may claim that there are some Persian, Turkish, Hindi and Abyssinian words in it and give some examples saying that there are foreign words in the Quran but it is not a valid claim. Every living nation borrows words from other languages and adapts them. The Quran is a clear Arabic book. That is, anyone who knows Arabic can understand the Quran. There may be some words in the Quran that were borrowed from other languages beforehand but they are already Arabic words. They are words used in Arabic. Here, there is an accusation just for the sake of claiming without considering linguistics. It is something that is observed in every language not only in Arabic. Every language borrows words from other languages and uses them. The same thing is valid for Turkish. The fact that some words come from other languages does not mean that a sentence is not Turkish. On the contrary, even if almost all of the words in a sentence are borrowed words from other languages, it is a clear sentence that everybody can understand. The Quran was written in understandable Arabic like that. In the verses above, that aspect of the Quran is emphasized.

The Quran was sent down in the language of Arabic. In many verses, the Quran is described as being in Arabic.
The Messenger(saws) of Allah(swt) read the Quran to his tribe in a clear language, Arabic, that is, in the language of Quraish, which was spoken in Hejaz and Makkah fifteen centuries ago. There is no doubt about it. However, it should be known that Arabic was a language in that period, a language with different dialects. The Quran was sent down in the dialect of Quraish because Makkah was a cultural center; the most beautiful Arabic was spoken there.
Makkah was both the cultural center of Arabs and a trade center, with the season of pilgrimage, the Kaaba, fairs of Ukaz, Dhul-Majaz and Majannah, which were also literary societies. Arab tribes and trade caravans went to the north and south and contacted other nations.

Those who went to the north contacted the Christians that were subject to the Byzantine and those who went to the north-east contacted Iranian fire worshippers. During those contacts, they acquired information about culture, civilization, literature, etc. The transfer of civilization and culture from one nation to the other takes place through contacts. Neighbouring nations learn from each other. During those contacts and commercial relations, Persian and Greek words entered Arabic. The greatest culture is language. The first thing that is influenced as a result of the contacts of nations with one another is the language. Through the same process, words from Syriac, Hebrew and even Turkish entered Arabic. The people of Makkah and Hejaz had contacts with the Jews too. The Jews were located on the trade way. The trade caravans that went to the south had similar contacts too. There were even some Iranians, Greeks, Egyptians and Abyssinia's although very few that lived in Makkah, which was a trade center. Doubtlessly, they learned Arabic. It is natural that many words entered Arabic through them.

So, words from other languages entered Arabic. Is there a language in the world that did not borrow any words from other languages? Do common words not exist in the languages that are regarded as distant to each other? There are so many words in the languages that belong to the same group. There are many common words in French, English, German and Persian. Those languages have words borrowed from Arabic too. There are many Persian words in Turkish, and many Turkish words in Persian. Similarly, there are words from other languages in Arabic. The scholars of Islam determined those words.

Source: http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/why-there-are-so-many-foreign-words-arabic-quran


To say that the Quran does not contain Arabic words we have to look at those words and date them back in Saudi Arabia if they weren't used, however this still would be a problem because the word doesn't always have to be used in the findings in the first place. Also there is a whole different argument to this. The Arabic that was used after the revelation came directly from the Quran therefore making it Arabic if it wasn't

I have to ask though not to use Answering-Islam again since i find the makers of it very offensive and i have seen them debate before i really dislike them. Also there is a whole refutation on Answering-Christianity about this subject.

 

[1robin]

Hey,

‘We know indeed that they say "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic pure and clear.’ (an-Nahl 103)

As its known, the name of words that indicate the meaning sent down to Muhammad (saws) through Jibril (Gabriel) by God Almighty. It was revealed to the heart of the Messenger of Allah (saws) not only as meaning but also as words. As a matter of fact, from the verses that express that the Quran is in Arabic in ten different places in the Quran,

“Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth― To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish, In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.” (ash-Shuara 26/192-195)

“Thus have we sent this down― Arabic Qur'an.” (Ta-Ha 20/113)

“(It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.” (Zumar, 39/28)

“A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail― a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand.” (Fussilat, 41/3) (Yusuf, 12/2; Ra’d, 13/37; an-Nahl, 16/103; ash-Shura, 42/7; az-Zukhruf, 43/3; al-Ahqaf, 46/12) it is understood clearly and definitely that not only the meaning but also the words are included in the content of the concept ‘the Quran’.

The Quran is in Arabic. Some people may claim that there are some Persian, Turkish, Hindi and Abyssinian words in it and give some examples saying that there are foreign words in the Quran but it is not a valid claim. Every living nation borrows words from other languages and adapts them. The Quran is a clear Arabic book.

Whoever wrote this rebuttal is making a drastic error. He is saying that human societies when developing a language need or at least do borrow words from other languages. This is true and completely irrelevant to Arabic. As I understand it Arabic is the language that the tablets in heaven that contain the Quran were written in. Allah would have absolutely no need to borrow from another language. His language would necessarily be pure and perfect and not require borrowing words from faulty human languages.

The Quran was sent down in the language of Arabic. In many verses, the Quran is described as being in Arabic. Makkah was both the cultural center of Arabs and a trade center, with the season of pilgrimage, the Kaaba, fairs of Ukaz, Dhul-Majaz and Majannah, which were also literary societies. Arab tribes and trade caravans went to the north and south and contacted other nations.

Once again this operson is giving a naturalistic explanation for a supposed supernatural event. This is consistent with my view that the Quran was composed entirely by faulty humans. Humans would need to borrow or be unaware that the words they used are borrowed and not Arabic. Not God.

The transfer of civilization and culture from one nation to the other takes place through contacts. Neighbouring nations learn from each other. During those contacts and commercial relations, Persian and Greek words entered Arabic.

Once again this doesn't matter unless the Quran is from men. Allah in heaven was not milling around with other cultures and needing to borrow words from them or borrowing them and not realising it.

So, words from other languages entered Arabic. Is there a language in the world that did not borrow any words from other languages?

I thought Arabic was not of the world. If it is why is Allah using it?

There are many common words in French, English, German and Persian. The scholars of Islam determined those words.

None of these languages make any claims that they are pure. Islam does and so is required to prove it. It fails. A good way to illutrate this is that the Qurtan is supposedly written on tablets in heaven by Allah. Why did Allah need to put words of other languages ina a book he said was pure Arabic. Allah isn't a human that was rubbing sholders with caravan trains, he wasn't a human that wouldn't know a word was in fact Greek not Arabic, and he wasn't a human that neede to borrow words because he did not have Arabic ones. However the human authors of the Quran were all these things. I could have given it a pass if the words the Quran borrowed were things like place names of another culture, or words that described something unique in another culture but that is not the case. The words are mostly everyday things and concepts. It looks far more like some ignorant people just didn't know any better. The Quran says it is in pure Arabic and it contains 274 words that aren't. Pretty simple. I will not spend time haggleing over non meaningfull issues and so after you reply to this I will move on. Where did you get this it sounds like it was from an ancient Islamic apologetics book? (Ignorant in English means a lack of knowledge, it is not an insult just a description, it doesn't mean stupid)

I have to ask though not to use Answering-Islam again since i find the makers of it very offensive and i have seen them debate before i really dislike them. Also there is a whole refutation on Answering-Christianity about this subject.

There is nothing about your finding them offensive that makes them inaccurate. I have a great problem when people reject things they do not like regardless of their truth. However I will do as requested whenever possible.

I do not think you have responded to how could passages of an all Arabic Quran be found in another cultures holy books written in their own language. This is impossible.

 

[F0uad]

Hey,

Whoever wrote this rebuttal is making a drastic error. He is saying that human societies when developing a language need or at least do borrow words from other languages. This is true and completely irrelevant to Arabic. As I understand it Arabic is the language that the tablets in heaven that contain the Quran were written in. Allah would have absolutely no need to borrow from another language. His language would necessarily be pure and perfect and not require borrowing words from faulty human languages.

Like i said before there is actually no real proof that the Tablets were written in Arabic remember when you asked if i believed this?

Once again this operson is giving a naturalistic explanation for a supposed supernatural event. This is consistent with my view that the Quran was composed entirely by faulty humans. Humans would need to borrow or be unaware that the words they used are borrowed and not Arabic. Not God.

So English isn't English by these standards since they also contain Latin and French words? Like i said before Allah(swt) does not use One Language he has no Language he only uses it to speak to people. When a society borrowed words from a other societies and made it there official Language then God spoke in there official Language.Its like saying that any revelation is Aramaic is not valid because its a dialect and contains Hebrew words that also have a meaning in Greek. (I hope i make any sense here)

Once again this doesn't matter unless the Quran is from men. Allah in heaven was not milling around with other cultures and needing to borrow words from them or borrowing them and not realising it.

See it as this way. There is a society in need they did trade with other countries and later the language developed. Then God sends a revelation with the words they use in that time in that society.

I thought Arabic was not of the world. If it is why is Allah using it?

Off-course its of this world since Ishmael(p) is the grand-fathers of the Arabs.
This is the same as saying why did God speak Hebrew to Moses(p) or Aramaic to Jesus(p) or an Unknown language to Abraham(p) etc..

None of these languages make any claims that they are pure. Islam does and so is required to prove it. It fails. A good way to illutrate this is that the Qurtan is supposedly written on tablets in heaven by Allah. Why did Allah need to put words of other languages ina a book he said was pure Arabic. Allah isn't a human that was rubbing sholders with caravan trains, he wasn't a human that wouldn't know a word was in fact Greek not Arabic, and he wasn't a human that neede to borrow words because he did not have Arabic ones.

I am sorry but i miss the logic in this response. Where did i actually say that i know for sure that the Tablets in heaven are in Arabic. Also if you took in mind what i have said earlier, if a Language develops (take outside words in its own language) then those words also have a meaning in that Language. The pure actually means being Inimitable and unique.

However the human authors of the Quran were all these things. I could have given it a pass if the words the Quran borrowed were things like place names of another culture, or words that described something unique in another culture but that is not the case. The words are mostly everyday things and concepts. It looks far more like some ignorant people just didn't know any better. The Quran says it is in pure Arabic and it contains 274 words that aren't. Pretty simple. I will not spend time haggleing over non meaningfull issues and so after you reply to this I will move on. Where did you get this it sounds like it was from an ancient Islamic apologetics book? (Ignorant in English means a lack of knowledge, it is not an insult just a description, it doesn't mean stupid)

Yes it is pure Arabic since those people spook it the language what was already developed. I am thinking about what your saying i really am but when i do i come to this conclusion. Your argument is that if a language is pure it needs to come from the first person who spoke it without having meanings in other languages.

There is nothing about your finding them offensive that makes them inaccurate. I have a great problem when people reject things they do not like regardless of their truth. However I will do as requested whenever possible.

Your argument actually came from Zakeria and not Answering-Islam its like me quoting Answering-Christianity or any ridiculous site that tries to demote a other religion. I rather have a friendly discussion where we can ask sincere questions based on our own real questions and not trying to search something up just to throw it out there.

I do not think you have responded to how could passages of an all Arabic Quran be found in another cultures holy books written in their own language. This is impossible.

You mean translations sorry could you clarify?


Robin take in mind that i am only answering with my knowledge i am not trying to escape or dodge your questions. You know that i am not a expert, if i give a unreasonable answer or not the answer your looking for i am really sorry for that.

 

[1robin]

Hey,
Robin take in mind that i am only answering with my knowledge i am not trying to escape or dodge your questions. You know that i am not a expert, if i give a unreasonable answer or not the answer your looking for i am really sorry for that.

Your doing fine. I will make a lsst short comment and then move to some more important things.
1. In the US we use words like C est' La Vie, Adios, Amego etc..... Just because we stole a word does not mean it becomes an English word. A words origin determines it's cultural label. Me borrowing a word no more makes it English than me stealing a car makes it mine.
2. There is no problem with the Quran or any other holy book using words from different languages. What screws the Quran up is that it makes the claim that it is in perfect Arabic, when it contains words invented by other cultures. Either get rid of the words or the claim (in theory of course).
3. There is no way passages of a Quran in perfect Arabic can be found in books we have that were written before Arabic existed.
Here is something I thought you might find interesting:

1. Being the focal point of all Muslims. The Koran is regarded by most as the uncreated word of God, written on golden tablets in Paradise. This view, strongly contended inside the Muslim world in the first centuries, marks the end of the most fruitful period of Muslim science. Until the middle of the 9th century AD (2nd Hijra century according to the Islamic calendar) the dominating view among theologians was that the Koran was created by God, hence his spoken words. For the Muslims today, the Koran is a physical proof of Islam. http://www.allaboutturkey.com/kuran.htm

If the Quran was never created but eternally existed in heaven on tablets. Then wouldn't that mean that the tablets must be identical to the Quran especially the language. If it isn't that means the Quran given to Muhammad isn't the same as the eternal one in heaven. I honestly do not care I just saw this and we had discussed it and so I thought you might be interested.



Like I said this is not all that important to me so I will move onto something that is, next but I will wait and see if you wish to add anything to this before I do.

F0uad, I prefer and you seem willing to say you don't know instead of making something up. I appreciate that.

Peace out,

 

[F0uad]

Your doing fine. I will make a lsst short comment and then move to some more important things.
1. In the US we use words like C est' La Vie, Adios, Amego etc..... Just because we stole a word does not mean it becomes an English word. A words origin determines it's cultural label. Me borrowing a word no more makes it English than me stealing a car makes it mine.

You have to keep in mind that there is no proof they aren't Arabic, you have to show me that they weren't used in Arabia before. Other nations could also have stolen the words from Arabic that you have listed. I think the burden lies on whoever denies the Quran being fully Arabic. Also you forget that Symetic (not sure how to spell it) languages look alike and most often have the same meaning. For example Ahad has a meaning in Hebrew and Arabic, Al-Samd as you mentioned has a meaning in Hebrew and Arabic the list goes on..

2. There is no problem with the Quran or any other holy book using words from different languages. What screws the Quran up is that it makes the claim that it is in perfect Arabic, when it contains words invented by other cultures. Either get rid of the words or the claim (in theory of course).

See above.

3. There is no way passages of a Quran in perfect Arabic can be found in books we have that were written before Arabic existed.

Could you clarify i don't fully understand this.

Here is something I thought you might find interesting:

1. Being the focal point of all Muslims. The Koran is regarded by most as the uncreated word of God, written on golden tablets in Paradise. This view, strongly contended inside the Muslim world in the first centuries, marks the end of the most fruitful period of Muslim science. Until the middle of the 9th century AD (2nd Hijra century according to the Islamic calendar) the dominating view among theologians was that the Koran was created by God, hence his spoken words. For the Muslims today, the Koran is a physical proof of Islam. The Holy Koran - All About Turkey

If the Quran was never created but eternally existed in heaven on tablets. Then wouldn't that mean that the tablets must be identical to the Quran especially the language. If it isn't that means the Quran given to Muhammad isn't the same as the eternal one in heaven. I honestly do not care I just saw this and we had discussed it and so I thought you might be interested.

Not per-see as i have mentioned i we don't know what language God uses or if he uses any language at all, also there is no clear description of the Tablets themselves they easily can mean in the wisdom of Allah(swt).

Like I said this is not all that important to me so I will move onto something that is, next but I will wait and see if you wish to add anything to this before I do.

F0uad, I prefer and you seem willing to say you don't know instead of making something up. I appreciate that.

I don't think i made something up..

Peace out,

Salaam

 

[1robin]

You have to keep in mind that there is no proof they aren't Arabic, you have to show me that they weren't used in Arabia before. Other nations could also have stolen the words from Arabic that you have listed. I think the burden lies on whoever denies the Quran being fully Arabic.

I do not find that maybe this could have happened or that to be a reasonable defense. Like I said this isn't that important so I will move on soon.

Also you forget that Symetic (not sure how to spell it) languages look alike and most often have the same meaning. For example Ahad has a meaning in Hebrew and Arabic, Al-Samd as you mentioned has a meaning in Hebrew and Arabic the list goes on..

If you find that to be the case for ceratin words I will assume you are correct. You mentioned threee above so that leaves 271 left. Don't worry about it.

Could you clarify i don't fully understand this.

The Quran states:


195

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In plain Arabic language.

196 ​

And surely the same is in the

Scriptures of the ancients.a
English Translation of the Holy Quran with Commentary by Maulana Muhammad Ali​

If the quran is in pure Arabic then how is it in pure Arabic when it is contained in ancient scriptures written before Arabic was known. There is no Arabic in the Torah or injil etc..... ​

Not per-see as i have mentioned i we don't know what language God uses or if he uses any language at all, also there is no clear description of the Tablets themselves they easily can mean in the wisdom of Allah(swt).​

That was just for your info.​

I don't think i made something up..​

I didn't suggest you did. I said I would rather you say I don't know if you dan't and I said so far you have done so. I will end this issue here and pick up a more important one in the next post.​

 

[1robin]

The presence of scrpipture in the Quran or the presence of inaccurate information would be very disburbing in a book from a devine perfect source. I will lay out some of these I would like explained if possible. Keep this in mind that my belief is the Quran was written by a man or men and that offers a far better explenation of why these thing are in the Quran. The Quran does it's self a disservice by claiming that it's present for is perfect and free from distortion. It has made it's own claims so sepurlative as to be prctically self defeating.

1. 
   95 (Moses) said: What was thy object, O Samirs?
   

Samirs as I am sure you know means a Samaritin. The above verses are concerning the making of the Golden calf. There is no evidence whatsoever that Samaritans existed until 1000 years after this time frame.

2. According to Surah 19:28, 3:33-36​

The Quran claims that Mary the mother of Jesus was the daughter of Imran and Amram, Moses and Aron's father. She is said to be their sister. Obviously Muhammad gor Mary and Mariam confused. A very human mistake. The Quran also says that:​

24

So a voice came to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely thy Lord has provided a stream beneath thee.

25 And shake towards thee the trunk of the palm-tree, it will drop on thee fresh ripe dates.a ​

This is almost identicle (so close that any attempt at saying it isn't looks desperate) to The Proto-evangelium of James. It even has the same verse concerning water the Quran has. The only difference is Allah is substituted for a baby Jesus. The same story can be found in the Gospel of the nativity of Mary. Both of these works are offical labeled as gnostic (meaning un devine knowledge). What is even more interesting is that the groups that had these false gospels showed up in Arabia between the 4-6 century.​

What is a story from a heretical Gospel doing in the Quran? Once again it looks like Muhammad is hearing things and writing them as facts.​

The Quran says Pharoh crucified the sorcerers during the plagues: approx 1400BC​

124 ​

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I shall certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then I shall crucify you all together!

Crucifixion didn't exist until far later when it was used in it's most primitive form by: ​

Crucifixion (or impalement), in one form or another, was used by Persians, Carthaginians, Macedonians, and Romans. Death was often hastened. "The attending Roman guards could only leave the site after the victim had died, and were known to precipitate death by means of deliberate fracturing of the tibia and/or fibula, spear stab wounds into the heart, sharp blows to the front of the chest, or a smoking fire built at the foot of the cross to asphyxiate the victim."[39]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Ancient_crucifixion

This given the oldest date possible as approx 600BC for the first crucifixion.That verse also seems to thrown in an Islamic practice that wasn't used in Egypt.


Who do you believe Surah 18:89-98 are referring to by O Dhu-l-qarnain? Most Muslims say alexander but a commentary I have says Darius.


This one is just funny not meaningful: Sura4:171 says: And say not, Three.

How can I recite this verse without saying the word that it says not to say? Like I said it was just funny.

I do not know what was going on with the formating here I couldn't fix it.
To be continued shortly.



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[1robin]

What do you think of the following:
Theodor Nöldeke
The present Koran is identical with the original. Muhammad probably could read and write, but he tended to use a scribe. There is some suggestion that part of the Koran was written down during Muhammad's lifetime, since he had its inserted and deleted in large suras which he probably could not have remembered unless they were written down. The Koran itself admits that Muslims accused Muhammad of changing verses (S. 16:103). Variations are explained by the abrogation of verses and laws. The Qurai****es preferred the stories by Nadr son of Harith, who told Persian myths – so Muhammad had him executed. The Koran contains many Biblical characters, but the stories are mixed up. The variations came from either the Jewish Haggada or the New Testament apocrypha or they are simply mistakes made by a listener (e.g. Haman is believed to be the minister of Pharaoh, and Mary is believed to be the sister of Aaron).
The style is semi-poetical. Rhyme is maintained throughout, but rhythm is rarely used. There are many reasons to criticise the style – arbitrary leaps between subjects, annoying word repetitions, and poor grammar. The challenge to 'produce a sura like it' is completely subjective. Muhammad repeatedly emphasised that the Koran is in Arabic, but he borrowed many foreign terms to express ideas that had no Arabic expression. Sometimes he misused these terms (e.g. the Aramaic 'furquan' meaning 'redemption' is used to mean 'revelation').
Differences between the Meccan and Medinan suras are due to a change in circumstances as Muhammad moved from being the preacher of a small, despised sect to becoming an autocratic ruler. However, establishing the chronology of revelation is almost impossible. The traditions that attempt to do so disagree with each other and are not reliable. In fact, there is very little reliable information at all about Muhammad before the Hijra. We are not even sure when to date the beginning of his prophethood (probably ~610). The Meccan suras tend to be short and are reminiscent of the oracles of pagan soothsayers, even beginning with the same oaths involving heavenly objects like stars. The greatest passage in the Koran is S. 1 – al-fatiha. This shows the influence of the Jews, especially in the reference to God as 'Rahman.' The Medinan suras are longer and contain sketches of the histories of previous prophets, laws, and diatribes against Jews and Christians. The beginning of each sura has a cryptic series of letters – for which no meaning is known. After the death of Muhammad no one knew the entire Koran by heart. Many Arabs revolted against Abu Bakr and had to be forcibly put down. The greatest opposition came from Maslama (a.k.a. Musailima) who claimed to be a prophet but was executed by Abu Bakr. Then 'Umar asked Zaid ibn Thabit to collate the Koran. The suras were arranged from longest to shortest, as even then the chronological order was imperfectly known. That codex was given to Hafsa. Other scholars also compiled their own codices. These became sources of contention because they different from one another. So, 'Uthman asked Zaid to write another codex and all the others were destroyed despite a fair amount of grumbling by their compilers. The variations between the codices could not be variations of dialect, as at this point the Arabic script could not express such variations, being both unvowelled and unpointed. The distinctives of the destroyed codices have survived somewhat in oral tradition. Ibn K'ab's codex contains two extra suras (similar to al-fatiha) and Ibn Masu'd has a different order and omits suras 1, 113, and 114. Ibn Mas'ud seriously opposed the use of Zaid's codex over his own, arguing that he [ibn Mas'ud] had been a disciple of Muhammad for longer and knew the Koran better than Zaid. Even after the production of Zaid's codex a great variety of different readings (extending to meaning and not just pronunciation) were possible through different means of pointing and vowelling. Eventually seven systems of pointing [each with two systems of vowelling] were considered valid. http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html​

This is no mere scholar. He was very respected and won the prize of Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres for his work on the Quran. He states many of the issues that I have listed. How would you counter his claims with facts.​