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Explaining The Virgin Birth?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Rather than trying to make the story explainable via scientific inquiry, I'd rather just accept it as a mythology with elevated themes of purity and innocence, heralding the incarnation of the Divine. It's not meant to be analyzed scientifically. It's meant to inspire imagination instead.
It is understandable that it is difficult to understand... we have trouble even understanding our own makeup let alone God's makeup.
Let's go back to a previous post where I added this diagram:
Even this is hard to understand. Our body has a voice that can say "I am hurting and I don't want to go to work" yet our mind can speak to our body and say "I am going to overcome the pain that my body is telling me about". Different substance, different purposes, different voices but still me.
The spirit is also different from the soul. You spirit can be saying "You know this is true" but your mind can say "It can't be true because I don't understand it". Two separate thoughts yet it is still you.
God, no matter what the parts, have all one voice. Different substance but same God, same voice and same purpose.
It is all "in God" and "one God".
Someone said it this way, "The Father imagines the purpose, the Word speaks it out, and the Holy Spirit through God's power makes it happen". No different than you spirit saying, "Jesus resurrection is true and you want to give your life to him", the body raising the hand saying "I want to give my life to him", and your soul then saying "I'm yours Jesus"... all of it working together as one because we are one.
So The Eternal Word enter into the body (Jesus - and the Word became flesh John 1:14). He entered into the body that was created.
Can our finite minds ever wrap around completely the understanding of God? Of course not - the finite can never fully grasp the infinite. But we can get a little understanding by looking at our own composition.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
If you don't understand the type of relationship Joseph and Mary had, you will miss it.
"...I mentioned how Joseph and Mary’s betrothal to each other was equal to a legal spousal contract, according to Scripture. The word for betrothed in Hebrew is kiddush, which is derived from the Hebrew word kadash, meaning “holy” or “consecrated.” This betrothal was considered a sacred event binding spouses to each other. It was because of this understanding of the sacredness of the bond of matrimony that adultery was considered such a serious sin. Marriage was a consecrated state. Desecrating this state by adultery left a woman defiled and was punishable by death or, in some circumstances, left her unfit to return to conjugal relations with her husband. (This seems odd to us today, but things were different among the ancient, tribal people with whom our Lord was dealing.)"
<snip>
"It is hard for us to fathom this in the twenty-first century. How could King David and St. Joseph have the responsibility to care for their wives but not be able to have conjugal relations with them? We have to understand this through the revelation given to us in the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 and Jeremiah 3:1 reveal to us that a woman who was divorced by her husband and then wedded to another could never return to her former husband even if her new husband were to die. Deuteronomy 24:4 declares:
Then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance."
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Pt. 2 - TimStaples.com
Part 1 for further context:
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Pt. 1 - TimStaples.com
"...I mentioned how Joseph and Mary’s betrothal to each other was equal to a legal spousal contract, according to Scripture. The word for betrothed in Hebrew is kiddush, which is derived from the Hebrew word kadash, meaning “holy” or “consecrated.” This betrothal was considered a sacred event binding spouses to each other. It was because of this understanding of the sacredness of the bond of matrimony that adultery was considered such a serious sin. Marriage was a consecrated state. Desecrating this state by adultery left a woman defiled and was punishable by death or, in some circumstances, left her unfit to return to conjugal relations with her husband. (This seems odd to us today, but things were different among the ancient, tribal people with whom our Lord was dealing.)"
<snip>
"It is hard for us to fathom this in the twenty-first century. How could King David and St. Joseph have the responsibility to care for their wives but not be able to have conjugal relations with them? We have to understand this through the revelation given to us in the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 and Jeremiah 3:1 reveal to us that a woman who was divorced by her husband and then wedded to another could never return to her former husband even if her new husband were to die. Deuteronomy 24:4 declares:
Then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance."
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Pt. 2 - TimStaples.com
Part 1 for further context:
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Pt. 1 - TimStaples.com
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
But we know that story is a myth. Supporting a story with a myth implies that that story is a myth as well.
interesting question. Was Moses of the House of Levi or the House of Pharaoh?
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Only in your mind... but not mine.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
" So according to scripture, Jesus was conceived by The Holy Spirit - who impregnated his mother, Mary
It did so without engaging in sexual intercourse, so although she was impregnated she remained a virgin"
But did Mary consider Jesus a god and worship Jesus because of it?
It only means as I understand that Mary did not sin. Right, please?
Regards
_______________
[21:92]
وَ الَّتِیۡۤ اَحۡصَنَتۡ فَرۡجَہَا فَنَفَخۡنَا فِیۡہَا مِنۡ رُّوۡحِنَا وَ جَعَلۡنٰہَا وَ ابۡنَہَاۤ اٰیَۃً لِّلۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ﴿۹۲﴾
And remember her who preserved her chastity; so We breathed into her of Our word and We made her and her son a Sign for peoples.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 21: Al-Anbiya'
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
In the mind of everyone that can reason rationally. But then creationists have to force themselves not to understand the sciences.
As a Christian it is a gross error to interpret Genesis literally. It portrays God as cruel and not all that bright. He is the sort of God that one should not worship, one where "might makes right". According to the Genesis myth he botched his creation, and then like a poor workman, he blamed his creation rather than himself when it went all haywire.
I don't agree... but certainly you can interpret it that way.
Not quite. That's true for the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke.
But it's not true of the Jesus of Mark, who's an ordinary Jew until his baptism and adoption by God as his son on the model of Psalm 2:7.
And there's no mention of it in Paul or John, though if it were correct you'd certainly expect to find it there. Their Jesuses were angelic or spiritual beings who pre-existed in heaven with God, and who made the material universe (no matter what Genesis says) and came to earth by being born in the usual way, since they're both said to be descendants of David (unlike Mark's but like Matthew's and Luke's), but otherwise their conceptions and childhoods weren't worth a mention.
Since she's told, not asked, you could make a good case she was nonetheless raped.
And that would appear to mean that the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke had God's Y-chromosome (so if the rumors about Jesus and Magdalen were true, maybe some folk out there right now ...)
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Science states before the ice age lived the giant race owning a different gas heavenly irradiated state. Fallout.
His story scientist quotes inside earth mass life before fell. God.destroyed life due to science machines. We were combusted or burnt. Machine parts inside fusion the proof.
Ice returns in the sea of the son the win every December. Keeping as the DNA genetic non giant heavenly existence our small bio forms. Animals and human stable. A non atomic irradiation.
Ice being the higher firm of holy water and oxygen generation for life continuance.
The lying scientist book writer told a story about his life. From his perspective in the sciences as scientific reasoning. Which never had not would infer everyday living conditions. Not science actually.
Using common sense is self advice.
Who never uses whole real discussions? Science. Who own and use their own language for earth converting.
In the past ice melted in rebuilt technologies. Philosopher converting of mass into gold products. Gold formed in seams melt and pressure proved it a dangerous idea.
They caused ice melt
Ground flooded to peak false mountain their pyramid.
They caused ground fission sink holes.
New teaching for nuclear dust fission. As per machine designed control. Proving a machine caused it.
Their life began after this event as science thinker. Natural life already existed.
Reason for blood and cell and firstborn human genetics to be mutated. Radiation giant satanic gas spirit fallout. Atmospheric water heated above our heads.
Huge ground surge lifted water mass off the ground surface in two. Ground life had little natural water left.
Egyptian humanity died in nuclear holocaust.
Just as stated.
Flooding by massive atmospheric rain release occurred over a forty day period. Known as it was recorded. Saved life in cooling event.
Wisdom. Water displaced cools nuclear fission.
Over a time period. Saviour asteroid stars wandering put back cold gas in space by stone particle disintegration. Allowed by mass for Ice to reform.
Genetics healed in baby life as the heavenly spatial womb healed by God stone spirit gas saving. It was renewed. Re new. New said re wed.
Message true.
Immaculately DNA healed by this God.stone miracle. A scientific teaching. Only as science relativity.
Evidence. Humans did it to their own self. Male scientist image. Cause. Effect. Seem in cloud amassing.
Extra clouds now blocked out irradiation fallout effect.
Promise. When water gets put back returned to ground by Saviour condition. Life not sacrificed would live again.
Nuclear science choice broke that promise. Why ebola. A new blood sacrifice occurred as proof of radiation fallout and ground water loss.
Immaculate heavens in space womb was a science teaching of cause and effects on human genetics.
It was never about how life was invented by a human thinking storytelling theist . Anyone today should wonder why a string theist for a machine reaction is trying to include bio existence in that theme.
Might be why they kept evidence of the attack knowing science tells lies.
His story scientist quotes inside earth mass life before fell. God.destroyed life due to science machines. We were combusted or burnt. Machine parts inside fusion the proof.
Ice returns in the sea of the son the win every December. Keeping as the DNA genetic non giant heavenly existence our small bio forms. Animals and human stable. A non atomic irradiation.
Ice being the higher firm of holy water and oxygen generation for life continuance.
The lying scientist book writer told a story about his life. From his perspective in the sciences as scientific reasoning. Which never had not would infer everyday living conditions. Not science actually.
Using common sense is self advice.
Who never uses whole real discussions? Science. Who own and use their own language for earth converting.
In the past ice melted in rebuilt technologies. Philosopher converting of mass into gold products. Gold formed in seams melt and pressure proved it a dangerous idea.
They caused ice melt
Ground flooded to peak false mountain their pyramid.
They caused ground fission sink holes.
New teaching for nuclear dust fission. As per machine designed control. Proving a machine caused it.
Their life began after this event as science thinker. Natural life already existed.
Reason for blood and cell and firstborn human genetics to be mutated. Radiation giant satanic gas spirit fallout. Atmospheric water heated above our heads.
Huge ground surge lifted water mass off the ground surface in two. Ground life had little natural water left.
Egyptian humanity died in nuclear holocaust.
Just as stated.
Flooding by massive atmospheric rain release occurred over a forty day period. Known as it was recorded. Saved life in cooling event.
Wisdom. Water displaced cools nuclear fission.
Over a time period. Saviour asteroid stars wandering put back cold gas in space by stone particle disintegration. Allowed by mass for Ice to reform.
Genetics healed in baby life as the heavenly spatial womb healed by God stone spirit gas saving. It was renewed. Re new. New said re wed.
Message true.
Immaculately DNA healed by this God.stone miracle. A scientific teaching. Only as science relativity.
Evidence. Humans did it to their own self. Male scientist image. Cause. Effect. Seem in cloud amassing.
Extra clouds now blocked out irradiation fallout effect.
Promise. When water gets put back returned to ground by Saviour condition. Life not sacrificed would live again.
Nuclear science choice broke that promise. Why ebola. A new blood sacrifice occurred as proof of radiation fallout and ground water loss.
Immaculate heavens in space womb was a science teaching of cause and effects on human genetics.
It was never about how life was invented by a human thinking storytelling theist . Anyone today should wonder why a string theist for a machine reaction is trying to include bio existence in that theme.
Might be why they kept evidence of the attack knowing science tells lies.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If your pregnant, your not a virgin. If you got somebody pregnant, your not a virgin.
Bear in mind, in those days, in vitro wasn't around.
Unless...
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Spelling mistakes. Phone will not allow me to edit
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
There is no doubt about it. If you remember the myth there were two special trees in the garden.
Actually there were many physical and real trees. Fruit trees, nut trees and all kind of trees. But, yes, there were in addition to that two trees that also had a spiritual representation - follow God or follow you own dictates.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Nope, you got that wrong on more than one level. I said there were two special trees. I did not say or imply that there were not other trees. Second the myth says nothing about following God in regards to those trees. Nor were they "spiritual". You appear to understand your version of God's failures since you are already spinning the facts.
Of course, knowing that you are approaching it as a non-theistic person, that would be your viewpoint.
But, yes, it was about following God since He said "Don't eat of that tree".
You are wrong when you intimate that I said they were "spiritual". I said they had a "spiritual representation".
They had every tree to eat as well as the Tree of Life but there was one that was designated as "I gave you everything now I ask that you honor me by following my direction. Let me be the Lord of your life" (Theological interpretation)
They decided to go a different route and not follow God.
I don't see any spinning, but I understand that you are trying to view what I am saying with the paradigm of a non-theistic viewpoint. (Which you have every right to do)