Experience and Reality

[Aquitaine]

To go with a popular SF action movie, how do you know that you don't live in the Matrix?

The Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions do not exist, BTW.

Okay I see your point, however, wouldn't you say that going down such a road so infinite (in terms of explainations/possiblities) and so ambiguous that trying to identify any "truth" behind our reality is pointless?

It's like worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack.

I kinda take pleasure from knowing that I (nor anyone else) knows squat about what happens after death. The very fact that all possiblities are open is somewhat comforting to me, because something really improbable in our reality here (like World Peace & understanding) won't neccesarily be improbable in whatever exists (if there even is anything) after Death.

 

[MSizer]

But we do not know if my experience of something is identical to yours. How do I know what you identify as red is not what I would perceive as green? Perhaps you have spent your life learning that red is what I believe is green, and neither of us would know it.

That's what I was trying to say in my post, except that I took it further to say that even if I "see" red when you "see" green, we both recognize it each time we see it, even if it's not the same process in each other's head, so we both can point it out with predictable reliability.

 

[MSizer]

So, you're saying the data we recieve from our senses is mostly subjective?

I usually think this, but part of me still believes there's some objectivity in what data we recieve.

What about you?

No, the data is the data, if a light of a certain frequency enters my eye, and you're standing right beside me facing the same direction, the light that enters your eye will be of the same frequency. The data is not subjective, but what our brains do with the data isn't always the same from person to person. For example, when I see bright red, I'm reminded of a movie that scared the pooh out of me when I was about 5 years old. You probably don't think of that. It's a sequence of mental events that occur in me that don't in you. There is a huge range of possiblilities of what our individual brains do with common data.

 

[MSizer]

I don't think it's as black and white as you present it
Why do you discount the processing that takes place in the eye?
What about those who argue that the eye should be considered part of the brain?

Well, the eye is a structure which allows light into your body, and it contains sensory neurons (part of the nervous system) to transmit data through axons back to your visual cortex. If the eye should be considered part of the brain, then so should the tongue and fingers, as each is a biological structure containing sensory neurons linked back to the brain. I don't think it makes sense to do that, but I'm not a neuroscientist, so I may be speaking out of my league.

 

[katiafish]

So, you're saying the data we recieve from our senses is mostly subjective?

I usually think this, but part of me still believes there's some objectivity in what data we recieve.

What about you?

Reality is subjective as far as the experience of one individual is concerned. But at the same time the very same individual perception of reality is affected mainly by the collective unconscious construct of the reality. That is why whilst there are fluctuations within the individual subjective experience of reality, like I might find soup salty and you find it sweet, it still remains a soup and not a dog or a tree..

 

[Aquitaine]

Reality is subjective as far as the experience of one individual is concerned. But at the same time the very same individual perception of reality is affected mainly by the collective unconscious construct of the reality. That is why whilst there are fluctuations within the individual subjective experience of reality, like I might find soup salty and you find it sweet, it still remains a soup and not a dog or a tree..

Hey c'mon, don't melt my brain like that!

 

[sandandfoam]

Well, the eye is a structure which allows light into your body, and it contains sensory neurons (part of the nervous system) to transmit data through axons back to your visual cortex.

The eyes do more than that

If the eye should be considered part of the brain, then so should the tongue and fingers, as each is a biological structure containing sensory neurons linked back to the brain.

You're mistaken.

 

[Aquitaine]

No, the data is the data, if a light of a certain frequency enters my eye, and you're standing right beside me facing the same direction, the light that enters your eye will be of the same frequency. The data is not subjective, but what our brains do with the data isn't always the same from person to person. For example, when I see bright red, I'm reminded of a movie that scared the pooh out of me when I was about 5 years old. You probably don't think of that. It's a sequence of mental events that occur in me that don't in you. There is a huge range of possiblilities of what our individual brains do with common data.

Y' see, the way I've seen life is as like one big "pool" or "stream" of data, the data itself is objective, but we (people, all living things) are like subjective fishing rods dipped into the stream.

Is that kinda like what you're saying?

 

[katiafish]

Hey, check this out anyone who is interested in scientific approach to reality consiousness and spirituality

YouTube - What the bleep do we know? Down the rabbit hole. part 1

 

[MSizer]

The eyes do more than that

Of course they do, but so do fingers and tongues.


You're mistaken.

Possibly, but how so? (not as a challenge - in the interest of being corrected)

 

[sandandfoam]

Msizer-
The eyes are more than a structure that allows light enter and that transmit data. Processing takes place in the Retina. Have a look here
Tutorial 45.2 Information Processing in the Retina

 

[MSizer]

Msizer-
The eyes are more than a structure that allows light enter and that transmit data. Processing takes place in the Retina. Have a look here
Tutorial 45.2 Information Processing in the Retina

Well yes, I'm aware that the sensory neurons in the retina are not simple, and maybe I was unclear - I wasn't trying to suggest that they are. I am aware that there are tubular photosensitive neurons and others shaped more roundly, and that each responds more sensitively to different amplitudes and frequencies of light, but that doesn't make then fundamentally different that other sensory neurons. The pressure sensitive neurons in your fingertips aren't digital - they don't just know two states - they can detect varying degrees of amplitude in non-linear anlagous way. But I don't think any of that changes the fact that they're not more than sensory neurons, regardless as to whether they're photosensitive or thermosensitive or other.

 

[sandandfoam]

Well yes, I'm aware that the sensory neurons in the retina are not simple, and maybe I was unclear - I wasn't trying to suggest that they are. I am aware that there are tubular photosensitive neurons and others shaped more roundly, and that each responds more sensitively to different amplitudes and frequencies of light, but that doesn't make then fundamentally different that other sensory neurons. The pressure sensitive neurons in your fingertips aren't digital - they don't just know two states - they can detect varying degrees of amplitude in non-linear anlagous way. But I don't think any of that changes the fact that they're not more than sensory neurons, regardless as to whether they're photosensitive or thermosensitive or other.

What processing takes place in your finger?

 

[Aquitaine]

What processing takes place in your finger?

Grope-osynthesis.

 

[MSizer]

Grope-osynthesis.

LOL!!!

On a more serious note, I actually don't quite remember the answer to that question - I'd have to google it, but I do remember that there are several types of sensory nerves within our skin, some which, when compressed, send signals representing touch, others, when heated or cooled, send signals to represent temperature. I don't remember how they function, but they're not different than any other sensory neuron, in that they are attached to axons which communicate to other neurons via neurochemical connections (triggered by electric pulses) to adjascent neurons. And that process goes through the spinal cord all the way back to the module of the brain that is associated with the sense. The skin doesn't process, and nor does the eye.

 

[sandandfoam]

LOL!!!

The skin doesn't process, and nor does the eye.

The textbooks seem to state the opposite, I'll leave you to argue it out with the experts.

 

[MSizer]

The textbooks seem to state the opposite, I'll leave you to argue it out with the experts.

Point taken, as I said earlier, I'm not an expert, so yes, it's time for me to back down.

 

[Aquitaine]

Point taken, as I said earlier, I'm not an expert, so yes, it's time for me to back down.

Damn, I wish I could be so non-arrogant during a debate!

 

[Willamena]

The obvious first question would be: how would you go about defining reality?

Reality is a thing realized (as "true"). It is also, in a particular sense, all things realized as one thing.

Is it what we feel, touch, taste? Is it a group consensus of what is there? Or is it something other than this?

Sensational reality is undoubted. Intersubjective objectivity-reality is an abstraction. Being reality is (allegedly) hard to attain.

I'm sure, it is many things other than this.

Having answered that, how do we know that what we experience is reality, that it is real?

Doubt is eliminated; certainty remains.

How do we know that reality even exists in some form or other?

Who is asking? (old Zen trick )

 

[rojse]

Reality is a thing realized (as "true"). It is also, in a particular sense, all things realized as one thing.

Could you elaborate please, Willamena?

Sensational reality is undoubted. Intersubjective objectivity-reality is an abstraction. Being reality is (allegedly) hard to attain.

I'm sure, it is many things other than this.

Intersubjective objectivity reality?

Doubt is eliminated; certainty remains.

I actually get this part. Or I think I do, which is close enough for me.

Who is asking? (old Zen trick )

Who is answering?