Existence, non existence, Heaven, hell, torture, and joy

[mahmoud mrt]

Forgive me for not reading all your posts in their entirity. However, I like to take these matters one step at a time, so to speak.

And the first problem I came upon in your original post is the quote above.

Even though we may be speaking theoretically, I am willing to accept that all beings in existence were once "nonexistent" entitities--lifeless, formless, without consciousness and/or lucid awareness of themselves and their yet unattained existence. I respectfully disagree, however, that all nonexistent entities were "naturally wishing to be created" as you have indicated. This to me is a huge assumption on your part.

One of my contentions and arguments against an eternal hell, a place of everlasting or long-enduring spiritual punishment for an individual's failure to realize and accept TRUTH, has always been that an unborn being, or "nonexistent entity" if you'd prefer, might choose to decline creation if fully advised of all the pitfalls one might encounter in the existent state of being.

For example, if a nonexistent being were told that he/she could be born but would have to find salvation or redemption or whatever in order to escape a long-enduring hell of spiritual punishment, and that the catch to this was that the TRUTH of this salvation was very hard to discover, perhaps practically impossible to discern because many other beings in existence were going to be giving misleading information, perhaps even downright lying about it in pursuit of their own personal interests, I believe there is the strong possibility that some nonexistent beings might just say, "That's okay, I pass." They might just opt to remain in the warm, comfortable embrace of nonexistent oblivion . . . as a matter of fact, when my girlfriend gets to hollaring at me for spending too much time at happy hour, I often dream about returning to the warm, comfortable embrace of nonexistent oblivion.

I guess I would need some explanation as to why nonexistent beings would "naturally" opt for creation. Does this not seem to you to be a monumental presumption on your part?

thanks for you respectful words,
This is related to what you discuss
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[FONT=&quot]3) holy Qur’an chapter 17[/FONT]

15. Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).

Here we see that there is no punishment unless there is a messenger, so there won’t be any punishment for the ones who are just miss leaded, did not receive the message or just received a very distorted wrong idea about it,

So regarding the ones who have no idea about the truth, they are forgiven if they have one atom of good in their hearts


I know that to say that the non existent object wishes to created seems to be a big assumption, but it’s very logical to me

How will a nonexistent creature won’t wish to be created?!, I understand it as a rule not as a behavior or verbal request

And as i said the torture is not eternal, so it all makes sense at the end, as I think.

You say that a simple thing like a nagging wife could make you wish to not exist, this seems to be strange to me, somehow funny (no offence at all)

There is a difference bet. the need to sleep for a while and the request to not exist at all

If you wish you can read the whole post to get the full view of my understanding.

thanks,
mahmoud

 

[Eliot Wild]

I understand it as a rule not as a behavior or verbal request . . .



You say that a simple thing like a nagging wife could make you wish to not exist, this seems to be strange to me, somehow funny (no offence at all)

Thanks for your reply, Mahmoud.

Two things:

1. Okay, I understand now. Birth is not a choice, but a rule.

and

2. No offense taken. It was supposed to be funny . . . I was making a joke. I'm glad you thought it was humorous.

 

[England my lionheart]

there is of course the invisible side of existence,....

even chaos has order

Great pic