Existence, non existence, Heaven, hell, torture, and joy

[mahmoud mrt]

Hi,

I would like to discuss this issue here

The concept of existence and non existence, please if you want read the whole post to get the concept then kindly reply.

This is my view, an Islamic opinion combined from the Islamic thinker, “dr mostafa mahmoud”, and the known scholar “Mohamed metwally elsharaawy”, and my reading in the holy Qur’an and the prophet’s (pbuh) traditions, still it’s personal, you can agree or not agree on it whether you’re a Muslim or not.

This concept could explain the question here, Why God is treating unevenly regarding testing and suffering and joy to different persons?

Before anyone was created, he was a non existent object; he was there but just a non existent possibility

This person in the non existence was naturally wishing to be created,

So God blessed him with the bless of creation,

Here comes the question: what this person wants his life to be? Of course he wants it to be ever joy, pleasure, etc,

But here we are forgetting the concept of the hereafter, the concept of ranking,

Let’s say a person who has good in him and evil in him (like all of us), what is the percentage of good, what is the percentage of evil, and how to really undress this person so as to put him in his rank?

I know that many now will reply that ranking includes hell which is ever lasting torture, no, in my opinion with proofs that torture is not ever lasting, it may be for a very long time, but not for eternity, hell is a place for ranking also, we will get to this point afterwards, thanks for being patient.

So to reveal this persons true nature and heart you need to put him in the circumstances suitable for this process,

This applies to Muslims ad non Muslims evenly.

So let’s say a person for instance with 50% good and 50% evil, this particular person for him to reach 100% good he needs to be put in hard circumstances so as to be humble towards God, feel the need for Him, thus get his heart purified and deserve heaven.

Lets say another person with 70% good and 30% evil, and this particular person for him to reach 100% good he needs to tested by another way, wealth, health, to test if he will use this in good, helping the poor, needed, thus deserves heaven. I hope good for Bill Geits by the way.

Lets get to the other side of the equation.

A person with 20% good and 80% evil, for him to reach 50% good he needs to be put in hard circumstances (or good circumstances respectively), he did crimes (as for any kind of crimes, moral, ethical, physical, etc), so sill in this life he will not reach 100%, he need to purified in hell first, to be punished for his crimes justly, then he will go to heaven, (many Muslims, and non Muslims are in this category)

Another person has 0% good and 100% evil, nothing will make him good by any means or believing in God, be thankful to him, so God puts him in the circumstances to reveal his true nature, he will be able to do all kinds of crimes, murder, rape, etc. So he deserves hell, in hell he will be punished for his crimes for a very long time depending on the crimes, then afterwards his torture will be over, he will not suffer, but still he will be in hell with his low rank. Heaven for him will be worse than hell, he doesn’t’ want to be thankful towards God for a single moment, so the mercy of God will put him in his rank.

So when the holy Qur’an always states the balance between the reward for good persons and punishment for evil ones , He mainly speaks to Muslims and non Muslims to help them do the effort so as to reach a good rank and deserve ever joy life in heaven.

Note here that the clear agreed upon concept in Islam is that heaven and hell are physical full body lives, not just by soul like the Christian faith, with respect

Regarding the textual proofs for this analysis I’ll post it here by God willing

Regards,
mahmoud

 

[mahmoud mrt]

[FONT=&quot]here are the textual bases of my opinion
[/FONT]
We first say

[FONT=&quot]God leaves all options for Himself alone, and tells us He's merciful and forgiving, we try to understand after reading and thinking carefully.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1) Holy Qur'an Chapter 4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

40 - God is never unjust in the least degree (methqal tharra: the wait of an atom): if there is any good (done), he doubleth it, and giveth from his own presence a great reward.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]2) The known prophet’s (pbuh) tradition: that God has divided mercy into 100 parts, He left one part in this life where all mercy bet. creatures comes, and left 99 parts in the hereafter to have mercy on all creatures[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Notice that the tradition mentions all creatures, meaning all humans and non humans creatures[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]3) holy Qur’an chapter 17[/FONT]

15. Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).

Here we see that there is no punishment unless there is a messenger, so there won’t be any punishment for the ones who are just miss leaded, did not receive the message or just received a very distorted wrong idea about it,


[FONT=&quot]4) Here is a language analysis: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

The Arabic word (Khaledon), this word means being a long time, long time in hell for example, it does not mean eternity, while long time can be eternity, it does not necessary mean eternity. (This is a very known word meaning fact in the Arabic language),

You'll find that some translators used the word "for ever", this is actually taking the easy way around, taking the feeling of the verse not the actual very accurate meaning of the Arabic word.

Eternity means in Arabic (ilaa alabad) (abada). Even "abada" from its meanings: "always", so it tends more to the meaning eternity, but it can be "always", not necessary eternity.

That’s why in the Egyptian courts when a sentence of prison "moabbad" it means 25 years not life time.

When we look in the holy Qur'an and see how many times (Khledoon) was mentioned alone regarding hell, and even not mentioned at all, it is most of times, and how many times (abadaa). (app. only 3 times).

I can't find the word "abada" regarding hell except only app. three times.
3 out of many with no "abada" and many even without "khaledon".[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5) Holy Qur'an Chapter 4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

93 - If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is hell, to abide therein (Khaledan) and the wrath and the curse of God are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.


This verse which is agreed to be applicable to moslims and non moslims and again it uses the word ''khaldan'' not the word ''abada''.

This verse was taken by a small group of Moslems who claimed that this proves that the Moslem killer will not enter paradise. And the scholars refuted this, by this very simple meaning of the word "Khaledoon", being a long time even if it's a very long time doesn't mean eternity at all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6) Holy Qur'an chapter 51[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

13. (It will be) a Day when they will be tried (and tested) over the Fire! (yoftanoon, from the word fetna: purification)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So here the word “yoftanoon” which means purification (literally putting the Gold in fire to clean it from other substances),[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So it means that it’s a process of purification, thus it has no other meaning than: after being purified they will go to heaven. (those who have one atom of good in them)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]7) Here we see the first chapter in the holy Qur’an, it is called Opening, the mother of all chapters, although it only have 7 verses, it is the main task of the prayer [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Most Gracious, Most Merciful; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Master of the Day of Judgment. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Show us the straight way, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]See how Most Gracious, Most Merciful is mentioned[/FONT]

8[FONT=&quot]) The known right tradition the means that anyone with one atom of belief in God the one the only one, will not be eternal in hell.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Note that this atom means an atom of good, it's a human nature, that an atom of good always refer to belief in God, even if the person neglects this fact.

No one can know the heart of a person a second before he dies, this atom of good will save him from entering hell.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Now next we will get to others verses in the holy Qur’an, note that when a word Unbelievers is mentioned it means that they insist on hiding the belief in God, it does not include the ones who are not knowing or m[/FONT]iss leaded, did not receive the message or just received a very distorted wrong idea about it,


[FONT=&quot]1) Holy Qur'an chapter 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

40 - To those who reject our signs and treat them with arrogance (khzaboo beayatena wa estakbaro anha), no opining will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: such is our reward for those in sin. (wa khazalek nagzee almogremeen)


Let's see the words

Until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle.

The camel can eventually pass through the eye of the needle, when it dies and decomposes.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2) Holy Qur'an chapter 83[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

34. But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:


Now we can understand the verse telling that persons in paradise will laugh on persons who are in hell for eternity, cause those in hell are not in torture any more, after being punished for their sins even after a very long punishment, they live as they chose, doing crimes every day. This is laughable of course.

This has no other meaning than they are not in torture, cause persons do not laugh on someone who is suffering. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3) Holy Qur'an, Chapter 103[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

1 - (walassr) By (the Token of) time (through the Ages),

2 - Verily Man is in loss,

3 - Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.


It's clear here that loss does not mean eternity at all. when you loose something it does not indicate that you lost everything for eternity.

Even the ones in paradise can lose the better degree, there're many degrees in heaven, so everyone live in the life he deserves, there will be no envy or hate of course, but there is loss for a better degree.

There is also loss by going first to hell for a long time, then after the time he'll get out to a lower degree in heaven, it's full of joy and a very good life of course, but they lost the better degree,

There is also the loss of eternal human devils not having one atom of good in their heart.

If you look there're many Moslems who are going to lose better degrees, and some are going to hell first for crimes. This sentence is agreed upon.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here is the illustration for these verses above from Holy Qur’an,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the known Chapter 103. from the known book (tayseer Alkareem Alrahman fe tafseer kalam almanan) from the scholar (abd Alrahman ibn nasser alsaady) and verified by the known scholar (mohammed ibn saleh alosaymeen)

The illustration:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
(God swore by (alasser) which is day and night where people do all deeds, that every human is a loser, and the loser is verse the winner.

And loss is different many varying degrees:

May be total loss like those who lost this life and hereafter, and lost the joy and deserved hell. And may be loss in some perspectives not all, (not total loss), and so God generalized loss for every human except for the ones who have these four qualities),, and he continued in illustrating the known four qualities mentioned in the verse. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]See how the respected scholar is very accurate[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]In the next post we get to the few verses where (abada) is mentioned regarding hell and analyze them.[/FONT]

 

[mahmoud mrt]

[FONT=&quot]Now we get to the few verses where (abada) is mentioned regarding hell and analyze them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Even that "abada" from its meanings: "always", so it tends more to the meaning eternity, but it can be "always", not necessary eternity.

That’s why in the Egyptian courts when a sentence of prison "moabbad" it means 25 years not life time.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So again God leaves all option for himself alone, we can only try to understand well.


Before we do that we should see these merciful verses to build upon it, please read till the third verse.

Holy Qur'an Chapter 25

68. Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment.

69. (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein (yaklod: from the word Khaledoon) in ignominy,-

70. Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for God will change the evil of such persons into good, and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Here it's clear that even the one who invoked with God, any other god. If he at last believed even at the very few minutes before his death, and did only one good deed, then he is forgiven and his evil deeds will be turned into good deeds.

Here we can understand the mercy of God.

And an important point is the concept that even (shirk: invoked with God, any other god) is forgiven if the person repents.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then we can understand this verse well:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Holy Qur'an Chapter 4

116. God forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with God, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).


Here all scholars agree that this no forgiveness is if the person till his last breath stayed (moshrik: joining other gods with God).

They all agree that if he believed even at the last minutes of his life, and did one good deed, he will be forgiven by God mercy.

Now we get to another point:

Even for the person who was (moshrik) till the last minute of his life,

Will he be eternal in hell?!

If he has one atom of good in his heart he will not be eternal in hell.
Not forgiving something does not mean necessarily eternity; the criminal who serves prison time is not forgiven because he receives punishment.

Similarly as the moslim criminal who will go to hell first for his crimes, he's of course not forgiven for the crimes he made otherwise he would have not come to hell first.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) Holy Qur'an Chapter 4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

37. Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but not (ma hom bkhregeen) they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Chapter 2:

167. And those who followed would say: if only we had one more chance, we would clear ourselves of them, as they have cleared themselves of us. thus will God show them (the fruits of) their deeds as (nothing but) regrets. (wa ma hom bekharegeen mn alnar) nor will there be a way for them out of the fire.


Here the words (ma hom bekharegeen) means that there will not be a way for them out of the fire, it does not mean necessarily eternity.

Here we must a known Arabic word meaning:

The word "la" means no, it does not mean eternity at all.

The word "ln" means never, it means for eternity.

Let me give a simple example

Before any example we say the sentence:
(To God is the best example, there is nothing compared to God)

When a father tells his son in home: you're not going out of here (ma ant bekhareg mn hona), does this son understand that his father is locking him for eternity, of course not.

When a prison chief tells a criminal with 25 years verdict: you're not going out of here, does this prisoner understands it as eternity, of course not.

When the same prison chief tells the same sentence to a criminal with a full lifetime verdict, will this prisoner understands it as eternity, here he'll understand it as lifetime because he knows he has a lifetime verdict.

Let's see if the father told his son in home: you'll never get out of here for eternity (ln takhrog mn hona abda), here it's a clear sentence.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here isthe illustration by "qurtoby", a known classical scholar, to last sentence "wa ma hm bekharegeen mn alnar": nor will there be a way for them out of the fire.

(daleel alla kholod alkofaar feeha wa annahum (la) yakhrogon menha)

look, no (abda), look again, (la: no) not (ln: never for eternity), even the old classical scholar was so careful in using the words.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3) The prophet's (pbuh) tradition that means: (la: no) enter to paradise for the one having one atom of (kebr: arrogance, and despising people).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Here we must again mention the known Arabic word meaning:

The word "la" means no, it does not mean eternity at all.

The word "ln" means never, it means for eternity.

All scholars and language scholars agree that (la) does Not mean never, (la) means simply (no), this simple fact known by all Arab citizens is confirmed by all language scholars.

So all scholars agree that this tradition includes anyone who has one atom of belief in his heart, meaning again one atom of good,

And so if he is arrogant, and despises people, this contradicts with the total right surrender to God in the heart, and being like this till the last second of his life. He will be punished in hell for a while God knows its duration to be purified, and then he goes to paradise after punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot],,continued[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[mahmoud mrt]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]4) Holy Qur'an Chapter 4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

167. Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of God, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.

168. Those who reject Faith and do wrong "(zalomo: terribly do sins and wrong),- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-

169. Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever (abada). And this to God is easy.

170. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from God. believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to God belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And God is All-knowing, All-wise.


See the word (zalomo: terribly did sins and wrong to others and themselves), see how they're described.

So it tells us that they have no atom of good in their heart.

And look in the last verse:

(And God is All-knowing, All-wise)

This means that He'll never put some in hell for eternity except for who has no single atom of good.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5) Holy Qur'an Chapter 72,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] verse 23, we look also at the verses before and after.

19. "Yet when the Devotee of Allah stands forth to invoke Him, they just make round him a dense crowd."

20. Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god)."

21. Say: "It is not in my power to cause you harm, or to bring you to right conduct."

22. Say: "No one can deliver me from God (If I were to disobey Him), nor should I find refuge except in Him,

23. "Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey (ya'as: always disobey) Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever (abada)."

24. At length, when they see (with their own eyes) that which they are promised,- then will they know who it is that is weakest in (his) helper and least important in point of numbers.


Here we see that the verses are talking about criminal disbelievers, who are hurting the prophet (pbuh) himself. And See the word (ya'as): always disobey, and to always disobey means to always do crimes, cause that all Islam is about, to prevent doing crimes, to order and encourage good deeds [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So it talks about persons who have no single atom of good.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]6) Holy Qur'an Chapter 33[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

64. Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,-

65. To dwell therein for ever: no protector will they find, nor helper.


I can't find the word "abada" regarding hell except for these 3 verses in last points mentioned

3 out of many with no "abada" and many even without "khaledon".

So it means again they are talking about the persons with no single atom of good.

It means unbelievers till the end; even in hell they will not believe in God, that they will never be thankful to Him at all.

You can see my analysis for the word "abada" in the begging of this post.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7) Holy Qur'an Chapter 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

106. Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs:

107. They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.

108. And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break.


Here we see that the sentence "except as thy Lord willeth", meaning that there will be persons that will not be in hell for eternity, it's also mentioned in verse 108 for the same meaning, is that there are persons who enter hell first for purification then enter heaven.

And those who will be in hell for eternity it's clear that they have no single atom of good, and the verse only mentions having of sighs and sobs, it didn’t mentions staying in hell for ever, it is in the next verse, . So having of sighs and sobs in the first verse does not indicate that this is for eternity, but the next verse only states staying in hell not torture[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So the accurate meaning of every verse and their sequence should be noticed[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
And the verse says "except as thy Lord willeth", which gives the clear possibility their torture will end after purification. Then they stay in hell, not in torture.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8) Holy Qur'an chapter 98[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

6. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (Khaledon). They are the worst of creatures.

7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.

8. Their reward is with God. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; God well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.


Here we see who reject truth (always reject the truth till the end while they had received the clear message not distorted), from the people of the book (Christians and Jews) , and the Pagans, there punishment is only mentions the word "khaledon" which literally does not mean eternity.

While on Moslems who believe and do good deeds it says that they will enter heaven for eternity.

[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The verses again leaves all options for God alone, and we can try to understand keeping in mind that He is the most Just, the most Wise and the most Merciful.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]



Hope you find this analysis beneficial, for moslems and non moslems here.



regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]mahmoud[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[England my lionheart]

Interesting,what percentage of good or evil does an African Baby have that is being tested by starving to death,many Babies die before they reach a year old like in Ethiopia.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

[FONT=&quot]Here is the summarization of my understanding:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

1) Heaven is the place of joy and living well with your family, persons entering heaven are two categories:

A) Who are pure hearted and did enough good deeds to enter heaven directly.

B) Who will enter hell first to be purified from their sins for a range of short time to very long time depending on the sins they made.


2) Hell is a place for "Fetna", it is when you put gold in fire so dirt and unwanted solids gets out of it and leaves it pure gold. It's a heart purification process, for most persons. So torture in hell is not eternal.


3) Eternal hell is for human devils, who have no single atom of good in their heart. They did awful crimes; they can't stand to be thankful towards God a single second, so heaven to them is worse than hell.

They will be punished for their sins for a very long time in hell, then their torture will be over, but they’ll still be in hell for eternity doing crimes to each other, living the life they choose and deserve, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
They'll stay in hell, not in torture.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
4) Heaven and hell are places for ranking, there are many degrees in heaven and hell.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God leaves all options for Himself alone, and tells us He's merciful and forgiving, we try to understand after reading and thinking carefully.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[England my lionheart]

Why would God create someone with an evil heart

 

[mahmoud mrt]

Interesting,what percentage of good or evil does an African Baby have that is being tested by starving to death,many Babies die before they reach a year old like in Ethiopia.

Simple, if they live they will be criminals, so they die young to go to heaven for eternity

Any child who dies goes directly to heaven, this is agreed upon for all scholars and moslims

regards,
mahmoud

 

[mahmoud mrt]

Why would God create someone with an evil heart

He was there in the non existence, God only brought him to existence, as he wished to be created by God

Please read the whole first post

regards,
mahmoud

 

[England my lionheart]

So if a God knows this information before a Child is even born whats the point of that Child being born,this is where it all becomes unreasonable.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

So if a God knows this information before a Child is even born whats the point of that Child being born,this is where it all becomes unreasonable.

Because this person wants to be created, any non existent object is wishing desperately to be created

And you miss the point that torture is not eternal

regards,
mahmoud

 

[England my lionheart]

How can a non existent person wish to be created if its non existent,as to whether torture is eternal or not it certainly seems cruel.

 

[Mr Cheese]

God is beyond scripture
imo

using scripture isn such a way...just becomes absurd
it is an exercise in scripture, nothign more, not God, but scripture

Allah we remember is beyond definition...to suppose Allah's ideas could be contained wholly in words is silly.

Does this mean words are worthless? no...
in order to understand someone's thoughts we need concepts, words, a coomon frame of reference

the words themselves are not that which is being described

As such then, this is an exercise in scripture, Not God
as long as we understand this...it is fine

 

[mahmoud mrt]

How can a non existent person wish to be created if its non existent,as to whether torture is eternal or not it certainly seems cruel.

So if you know that if you will be created you'll do crimes that deserves long punishment, then go to heaven afterward, or stay in hell enjoying yourself,

Will you not wish to be created?!

regards,
mahmoud

 

[mahmoud mrt]

God is beyond scripture
imo

using scripture isn such a way...just becomes absurd
it is an exercise in scripture, nothign more, not God, but scripture

Allah we remember is beyond definition...to suppose Allah's ideas could be contained wholly in words is silly.

Does this mean words are worthless? no...
in order to understand someone's thoughts we need concepts, words, a coomon frame of reference

the words themselves are not that which is being described

As such then, this is an exercise in scripture, Not God
as long as we understand this...it is fine

Of course God is beyond scripture,

this is my personal understanding, this understanding gives me peace, if it gives another person peace, then good,

you have the right to disagree with it

But how you can judge the scripture while you're not a moslim?!

 

[England my lionheart]

Isn't it more likely due to random fortune,for example my Mother and Father met by chance and after courting Married and had some Children,my eldest Brother died so they had me,this is how random life can be.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Of course God is beyond scripture,

this is my personal understanding, this understanding gives me peace, if it gives another person peace, then good,

you have the right to disagree with it

But how you can judge the scripture while you're not a moslim?!

well I judge all scriptures not just muslim ones...

words are words...they are ways to understand, not the thing sought to be understood themselves.

This is a fundamental reason why many are wrong.........they worship a religion, their words...Not God.

You stated this thread was open to anyone though, muslim or not. Actually I like a lot about Islam...it is perhaps the most mystical of the three main abrahamic religions..... but one must go below the surface.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Isn't it more likely due to random fortune,for example my Mother and Father met by chance and after courting Married and had some Children,my eldest Brother died so they had me,this is how random life can be.

there is of course the invisible side of existence,....

even chaos has order

 

[Eliot Wild]

This person in the non existence was naturally wishing to be created,

Forgive me for not reading all your posts in their entirity. However, I like to take these matters one step at a time, so to speak.

And the first problem I came upon in your original post is the quote above.

Even though we may be speaking theoretically, I am willing to accept that all beings in existence were once "nonexistent" entitities--lifeless, formless, without consciousness and/or lucid awareness of themselves and their yet unattained existence. I respectfully disagree, however, that all nonexistent entities were "naturally wishing to be created" as you have indicated. This to me is a huge assumption on your part.

One of my contentions and arguments against an eternal hell, a place of everlasting or long-enduring spiritual punishment for an individual's failure to realize and accept TRUTH, has always been that an unborn being, or "nonexistent entity" if you'd prefer, might choose to decline creation if fully advised of all the pitfalls one might encounter in the existent state of being.

For example, if a nonexistent being were told that he/she could be born but would have to find salvation or redemption or whatever in order to escape a long-enduring hell of spiritual punishment, and that the catch to this was that the TRUTH of this salvation was very hard to discover, perhaps practically impossible to discern because many other beings in existence were going to be giving misleading information, perhaps even downright lying about it in pursuit of their own personal interests, I believe there is the strong possibility that some nonexistent beings might just say, "That's okay, I pass." They might just opt to remain in the warm, comfortable embrace of nonexistent oblivion . . . as a matter of fact, when my girlfriend gets to hollaring at me for spending too much time at happy hour, I often dream about returning to the warm, comfortable embrace of nonexistent oblivion.

I guess I would need some explanation as to why nonexistent beings would "naturally" opt for creation. Does this not seem to you to be a monumental presumption on your part?

 

[mahmoud mrt]

well I judge all scriptures not just muslim ones...

words are words...they are ways to understand, not the thing sought to be understood themselves.

This is a fundamental reason why many are wrong.........they worship a religion, their words...Not God.

You stated this thread was open to anyone though, muslim or not. Actually I like a lot about Islam...it is perhaps the most mystical of the three main abrahamic religions..... but one must go below the surface.

I was somehow offended by the word

using scripture isn such a way...just becomes absurd

may be cause English is not my original language

and i meant that you were trying to judge the scripture from the Arabic perspective which is not your language

you can discuss it as the translation, it 's not my translation, it's is one from official ones. And of course i compare it to the arabic verses which i clearly understand,

this thread is open as you said

Yes one must go beyond the surface, trying to understand, that what this thread is all about

i may ask what do you like about Islam, since we are debating

regards,
mahmoud