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Featured Exercise regarding Christian Scriptures

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by KAT-KAT, May 14, 2020.

  1. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to try something different, take it like an exercise where you can debate. I will state a bunch of things and you tell me where things are wrong, if at all:

    Before the arrival of humans, God and Lucifer had some difference, and Lucifer apparently took a third of the angels with him ( Revelation 12:4 ) in rebel and was cast to the Earth. In the garden, he temped Eve. Earth, not hell, is his kingdom and at the end, he gets cast into a lake of fire burning with God's wrath as punishment ( Revelation 20:10 ). Then there is a new heaven and a new Earth.
     
    #1 KAT-KAT, May 14, 2020
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  2. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I don’t really get whether you are asking is it as per the scriptures (which are contradictory) or whether you are asking is it factual (which it is not).
     
  3. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    I'm looking for people to tear my statements apart. If we can get some Christians who think differently than the posted statements and want to point out how Scriptures are different, all the better. If we can get nonChristians to use real world evidence to point how the whole entire thing is absolutely impossible, that works too :)
     
  4. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    God and Lucifer had some difference before the arrival of ADAM -not before HUMANOIDS ON EARTH (the Earth HAD BECOME waste and ruin to an unspecified degree after an unspecified amount of time after the initial creation of the heavens and the earth). Lucifer was an archangel over a third of the angels -which he deceived/turned against God. He was cast BACK DOWN to Earth -as he willed to "ascend above the heights of the clouds" and "be like the most high" in a failed coup attempt. That alone shows that a 6,000 year old Earth is not biblical.
    Those sinning angels "kept not their former estate" -which was Earth before Adam.

    Let it suffice for now to say God will make ALL THINGS new -and that it is his will that even Satan be like the prodigal son!

    In the following, Satan is previously identified as the king of Tyrus -but that's for another thread...

    The fact that Lucifer erred -or even wants to destroy humanity -does not negate the fact that God loves him -or that his mercy never fails -but Satan (a name change to reflect circumstance) -must will to "return" -and God would receive him with as much -and more -joy as any of us if an errant child returned!

    Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
     
    #4 Etritonakin, May 15, 2020
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  5. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Ok, well I think the idea of an all Merciful God flies in the face of giving infinite punishment to the devil, beast and false prophets - all of which are only capable of finite crimes.
    There is much more to it than that, but that should do for a start.
     
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  6. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Okay. Well I wasn't thinking the devil has eternal fire punishment but eternal death. God's fire is so hot, it completely destroys the devil.

    But that's still a bit severe.
     
  7. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Which version of the Bible are you getting Revelation 20:10 from?
     
  8. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Apparently the same as you, straight from RF. Curse my reading skills!

    Yes, I see that you are correct.
     
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  9. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    There are some points which I think are wrong. Lucifer doesn't necessarily refer to Satan and in Revelations 12 he would be called the Dragon, which is a grown version of the serpent in Eden, so it would make sense that Revelations 12 happens after humans are created. Satan is still in heaven in the book of Job so it seems that he wasn't yet kicked out of heaven at the time Job lived.

    The idea that he lives in a fiery hell is more a concept from Milton's Paradise lost than from the Bible itself. After the battle of Armageddon Satan and his angels get thrown into Tartarus and trapped there so his entrapment must still occur. After the 1000 year rule is over then he, along with death, get completely destroyed, not just punished, which is the second death.
     
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  10. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    So there is no connection between the dragon which fell and Isaiah 14:12-14 ?
     
  11. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Okay. I think I get it now. Never mind.

    Satan and Lucifer are different and they both fell. Lucifer is the dragon.
     
  12. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Lucifer or Morning star is a metaphor. It can mean rise or/and fall (because of the way it appears in the sky). Thus it was used for king of Babylon, Satan and also Christ.
     
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  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. The Great Dragon is explicitly called Satan and the Devil in revelations 12:9.

    Isaiah 14:12-14 calls the King of Tyre "Lucifer", but the general description seems to be using the original serpent's fall from grace as a description of the King, implying that the King is similar to Satan. The original word translated as Lucifer in the KJV means "morning star" or "shining one" or "Day Star" and is the planet Venus. Using Venus to describe this figure is in itself symbolic, as it rises to be the brightest star in the morning but is extinguished even before the sun rises. It isn't an actual name from what I have studied.
     
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  14. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Okay. I might have it now.
     
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  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Here is another cool aspect to it. Venus, Lucifer, rises to power but gets extinguished when the sun rises.

    The Messiah is said to be the Sun of righteousness:

    "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall" (Malachi 4:2).

    So when Jesus rises Satan will be destroyed. A cool metaphor.

    If one wants to nitpick though, associating a cyclical occurrence like the rise and fall of the sun and the day star would mean that Satan rising and falling is a cycle and will repeat itself over and over again.
     
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think you have the timeline a bit muddled....

    The Bible tells us that satan was a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden.....
    Ezekiel 28:12-17....
    “You were the model of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
    You were adorned with every precious stone. . . .
    They were prepared on the day you were created.
    14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
    You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.
    15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
    Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . .
    17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.

    You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor."

    This was a position of trust and responsibility in God's heavenly organization. Being there in the garden, observing what was going on, this once faithful angel began to entertain ambitions that were out of line with his station as a guardian... a servant of his God. It was a treasonous shift in his loyalties. He wanted what the humans were giving to God.....their worship.

    He observed everything carefully and devised a plan to separate the humans from God....it was the only way he could then become a replacement god for them. He tempted the woman in order to get to the man....forcing him to divide his loyalties and he chose to join his disobedient wife rather than to obey his God.

    Being cast down to the earth came later even though satan had full access to both heaven and earth in the interim. God was allowing him to prove himself to be the better choice of god and ruler for the human race.

    Revelation 12 is a description of what was to occur at the time of the end. The time for Jesus to return and to establish his Kingdom over the earth. It was a time that was described by the prophet Daniel about 500 years before Jesus was born as a human. (Daniel 7:13-14) This was the time for Christ to become King and his first act as ruling monarch was to evict satan and his hordes from heaven.

    Revelation 12:7-12....
    "And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

    “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”


    That "short period of time" is 'short' from God's point of view, but not man's. We have a series of world events in Matthew 24 as well as Daniel's prophesy to make some calculations about when "the time of the end" would actually be. Daniel places the time of the end in the rulership of the present world rulers, and the series of world events was to begin with unprecedented warfare. I believe that began in 1914 with the outbreak of the First World War and satan and his hordes have to continued to intensify their efforts ever since. But the devil's short period of time is almost up.

    When he returns to judge the world, Jesus will hurl the devil and his demons into an abyss of inactivity, for 1,000 years whilst the Earth's new rulers repair all the damage done to the earth under satan's influence, (Revelation 11:18) and brings the redeemed human race back to their original condition, as they were at the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4) Earth will then become man's permanent home and all will return to God's original purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

    At the end of the 1,000 years, humanity will receive one last test as the devil is released from his prison. (Revelation 20:1-3) Those who pass this test will inherit everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth, whilst those who fail, will join satan in the lake of fire....the fire is not literal, but a symbol of everlasting destruction in "gehenna". (Matthew 10:28) Those who go into the lake of fire will never be seen again...nor will we remember them or their horrible deeds. (Isaiah 65:17) There is no hell of eternal torment...just eternal death.

    That is how I understand the Bible's message...
     
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  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Nah, the dragon that fell was the one that the night king did with an ice javelin

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Shaykhahadun

    Shaykhahadun New Member

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    Helel in Hebrew. The notion that people refer to it by a Latin name (a Catholic remnant nonetheless) is damn strange, obviously poor translation/transliteration when the text is not in Latin, lol

    Also, Isaiah 14:4.
    "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon"

    This taunt towards the King of Babylon covers Isaiah 14:4 all the way to Isaiah 14:27.

    The clear meaning of this long poem is directed towards the fall of the Babylonians, an utilizing motifs from Babylonian paganism as a sarcastic, polemical reference to Inanna.


    Nonetheless, Isaiah 14:4-27, is a pretty sweet diss-track against the King of Babylon, lol
     
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  19. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I guess they used "Lucifer" because they identified that the writer was speaking about Venus, then they just went with it. Later on people thought that it was an actual name rather than a metaphorical description.

    If there is one thing that the Bible is good at, it is diss-tracks! They are epic, flashy and cause the fear (or a chuckle) of God, especially when read from the KJV. Many quotes actually come from the Bible's diss-track library, such as being "lead like a bull to the slaughter" (reference to a man lead astray by a wayward woman), "casting pearls before swines" , "the writings on the wall" and many more.

    The funniest one to me is when God disses Israel itself, saying that it lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

    Epic low blows.
     
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  20. Shaykhahadun

    Shaykhahadun New Member

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    On this, no it's a literal star. Historically it has had astrological and somewhat "astrotheological" (in it's polytheistic sense) connotations, many pagan traditions had 'myths' about it.

    The Book of Revelation (as far as Christianity is concerned) seems to be an early pinpoint of where the association of Satan to the Serpent in Eden has been correlated (before Christianity came alone the serpent was a serpent).
    But as for Venus, well we have the further complication that Jesus himself is called "the morning star" in the NT (Revelation I think..), so Christian exegesis can get quite flimsy there, very much eisegesis.

    Anyway, like you already mentioned the way Protestants see it now tends to have ironically come out of Milton's and Dante's epic poems (Paradise Lost and the Divine Comedy, respectively). It appears to be rather a cultural-myth that has become integrated into various Protestant sects. The further back you go, the less you'll see any kind of association of that kind.
     
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