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Evolution has never been observed

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
And yet, it is still manifested (or 'controlled') by thought.
No it's not... It's osmotic. No thought needed.

Yes everything that can be measured is measurable because of existing awareness.
So what? Just because we need awareness to measure things doesn't invalidate the existence of the thing, nor does it mean that it requires us to be.

That is true - probably. The fact however reamins that brain patterns can be altered favourably by use of volition and the methods i specified. However, this matter is discussed elsewhere. We can continue debating there so as not to disturb this thread.
Brain patterns are thoughts and we can focus on thoughts, obsessively repeat them.... but just because you can influence a thing doesn't mean you totally control it.

wa:do
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
No it's not... It's osmotic. No thought needed.

Your opinion.

Just because we need awareness to measure things doesn't invalidate the existence of the thing, nor does it mean that it requires us to be.

And where might that evidence be? The one where (absolutely no) awareness of data is not needed for data to exist.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Thread update.

I'd like to get back to what is main purpose of this thread which can be found all the way back on post #351. And as reminder, I'll take some statements I made in OP and reiterate them now here around page 63.

I don't think I actually believe the title of this thread, but since it can't be discussed in the other thread, I thought I'd posit a few items here for consideration. I guess, I'd also like to think this thread could serve as discussion for that other one.

That other thread is, as I understand it, intended to present resources for what proponents of TOE would like anyone who has any disagreement (more or less fundamental disagreement) and be educated on, before continuing to spout off whatever challenges one might wish to express.

That is the ideal. Get educated (caught up) first, and then let's have the discussion on the data.

And so that has been the purpose for this thread. The main purpose. With my intent to select material from the other thread and read through it, but also use this thread as something to scrutinize the material.

And if one references post #352, you get a table of contents that shows exactly where I've done that on this thread.

I had pretty much hoped that if there was discussion to be had in this thread, it would be based on those posts. Instead, it has been based, more or less, on title of this thread (as if I'm blatant denier) and on same old arguments we have in all other (evolution type) threads, with the frequent jabs of "get educated before you speak." Which I continue to find ironic given this thread, but oh well.

From this point forward though, I'd like to keep this thread focussed on it's main purpose and one that I feel I've maintained some consistency with, while also demonstrating that I'm not least bit shy of engaging in other intellectual debates on this topic.

So, as of this moment, I do request that persons wishing to engage in debate on side commentary, to go to the "Side Discussion" thread that I just created.

And this thread will be used for my 'learning' and scrutinizing of the material that has been noted a good dozen times of so in this thread, and likely will be noted at least a dozen more times here.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So, continuing on main vein of this thread, and going from post #287. Note that post #351 was summary of most recent section and post #352 is latest table of contents for this thread.

In this material, we are still in section 2 of 7, titled "Patterns."

And in this post, I'm starting with new subsection titled, "Classification." This area appears to have 5 to 6 pages in all.

Using the Tree for Classification​

Biologists use phylogenetic trees for many purposes, including:

  • Testing hypotheses about evolution
  • Learning about the characteristics of extinct species and ancestral lineages
  • Classifying organisms

All good in my book.

Using phylogenies as a basis for classification is a relatively new development in biology.

Most of us are accustomed to the Linnaean system of classification that assigns every organism a kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species, which, among other possibilities, has the handy mnemonic King Philip Came Over For Good Soup. This system was created long before scientists understood that organisms evolved. Because the Linnaean system is not based on evolution, most biologists are switching to a classification system that reflects the organisms' evolutionary history.

It's nice that King Philip did that.

I'm not sure how aware I was of the 2 classification systems. I believe I had heard of both before reading this material, but must admit this feels like type of learning that helps confirm something semi significant in this process (I'm going through).

I'd like to note that the material does provide definition here for "species" which I find somewhat pertinent, but unless someone (reading this) wishes for me to present that for deeper understanding, I just assume move on. My basic understanding of 'species' is a population that can interbreed and, so far, my guiding understanding is that the species concept is a bit fuzzy.

Evolution is also defined in this portion, which is the topic and is not definition that I'll (ever) let go not noted. The reader can assume I'll be providing summary of this material that will be sure to discuss my understanding of that definition (in this material).

This phylogenetic classification system names only clades—groups of organisms that are all descended from a common ancestor. As an example, we can look more closely at reptiles and birds.

(Material provides 4 diagrams, all essentially the same, helping with understanding how things are mapped.)

Under a system of phylogenetic classification, we could name any clade on this tree. For example, the Testudines, Squamata, Archosauria, and Crocodylomorpha all form clades.

I understand, I think, the mapping being done. Not sure I understand/agree with qualitative analysis, but pretty sure that I'm not suppose to be analyzing in that way at this time. So moving on.

However, the reptiles do not form a clade, as shown in the cladogram. That means that either “reptile” is not a valid phylogenetic grouping or we have to start thinking of birds as reptiles.

Again, for overview purposes (understanding mapping in general terms only), I get what this is saying. Beyond that, with further analysis (what I'm reading into the assertions), I find it questionable, but feels like this is not time for that.

Another cool thing about phylogenetic classification is that it means that dinosaurs are not entirely extinct. Birds are, in fact, dinosaurs (part of the clade Dinosauria). It’s pretty neat to think that you could learn something about T. rex by studying birds!

Not so 'neat' to me right now, as this is the sort of 'reading into to it' that I had refrained from above. In very general terms, my analysis amounts to seeing the model suggest something that I so far don't have basis for agreeing with in terms of matching 'nature as I observe it' and am more or less having to put faith in these diagrams, which just seem suspect to me.

But I really don't feel (still) that this is time (yet) for that sort of analysis and will hope this subsection is just mainly for purposes of building understanding of 'how things are modeled in evolutionary theory.' If anyone reading this feels there is more to this particular page, and thinks I must stop to discuss it, I feel very open to that. Assuming no one does have that inkling, I'll plan to move on.

In my next post.
Which will be in the sub-page of this subsection on Classification.

(As is ongoing tradition in this thread, I note) Again, in this portion that I covered, the word "observe" or "observation" does not appear.

Next up for this material is still in "Patterns" and is sub-page titled, "Switching to Phylogenetics," which I'll get to in next post.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Housekeeping update. I had hoped to do this with OP, but I can (for some reason) no longer edit that post. So perhaps I will have to do this sort of housekeeping periodically in this thread.

Here are the posts (by me) in this thread that are intended to be in line with OP:

  • Post #3: Evolution has never been observed (Part 1)
  • Post #4: Evolution has never been observed (Part 2)
  • Post #7: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 1)
  • Post #48: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 2)
  • Post #60: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 3)
  • Post #74: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 4)
  • Post #85: Summary understanding of Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 1)
  • Post #98: Re: Evolution 101 (Intro)
  • Post #100: Re: Evolution 101 - Definition (Part 1)
  • Post #104: Re: Evolution 101 - Definition (Part 2)
  • Post #121: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns (Part 1)
  • Post #150: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns (Part 2)
  • Post #202: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Phylogenies (Part 1 and 2)
  • Post #237: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Phylogenetic Starbursts
  • Post #239: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Part 1)
  • Post #269: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Part 2)
  • Post #277: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Part 3)
  • Post #287: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Part 4)
  • Post #351: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Summarization)
  • Post #624: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Classification
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Not so 'neat' to me right now, as this is the sort of 'reading into to it' that I had refrained from above. In very general terms, my analysis amounts to seeing the model suggest something that I so far don't have basis for agreeing with in terms of matching 'nature as I observe it' and am more or less having to put faith in these diagrams, which just seem suspect to me.
You don't have to put faith in the diagrams... the data is out there for you to see for yourself.

wa:do
 
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