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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Earthling, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Didn't you post a link? Lost.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Yes I posted and cited a link. A simple internet search will answer your questions it you cannot find my previous post,
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I already got my answer long time.
    I was trying to see if anyone could show me different to what I found.
    This world has no morality - no moral values, imo.
    Definition:
    Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

    A principle does not change. It's a fundamental truth.
    So I do not find any principles in this world on which right or wrong are based.
    The entire foundation is collapsing, or already has collapsed.
     
  4. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    @nPeace

    Well there is certainly nuance. Two minors of a similar age engaging in sexual acts has many factors to it. Are they both just horny teenagers dating?
    Is one of them an abused child merely acting out the abuse on another in order to make sense out of their trauma?
    We err on the side of caution when it comes to consent, especially when sex is involved. Because let's face it, everyone is naive when we're kids. With naivety comes an easy route to being manipulated.
    But we also have to allow wiggle room, because life is messy.
    A 20 year old can be manipulated sure. But with their more advanced age, as it were, they are able to deal with the consequences more effectively than a freaking 10 year old. That's just basic life.

    Perhaps. I find the whole "abandoning morality" a common prophecy in religious texts, though.
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Good thing you qualified if with, imo, because that is what your presenting is your opinion based on what you believe,

    Incorrect definition of Principle.

    Conclusion based on your belief, and not the real world.
     
  6. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Clearly you don't understand what I am saying and clearly you are still confusing the notions of morality and law. I do not think it is immoral (necessarily) for someone to have sex with a person who is legally below the age of consent - a 15 year old having consensual sex with a 15 year old is not IMO immoral even if it is, by the letter of the law, illegal. It would, however, IMO be immoral for a 20 year old to have sex with a 15 year old knowing full well that the law indicates that a 15 year old is probably not mature enough to give meaningful consent. It is also IMO immoral for an adult not to know the age of a person one intends to have sex with if that person is young. If a mature-looking 13 year old dupes an adult into believing they are old enough to give consent legally, then I suppose there is a question - but I hardly think that can be a frequent moral concern. Most 13 year olds do not look 16 in my experience and if you are much more than about 16-20 years old yourself, why would you even be considering having sex with someone that looks 16? I mean I know people do - but are you really defending the morality of such liaisons? If there is any level of exploitation - it is immoral regardless of whether it is legal IMO.
     
  7. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Since you asked for my experience reading the Quran- that is what I'll give you. I find that I might come away from the Quran with that message if I put it in no further context. The same can be said of the Bible, as you acknowledge.

    I understand that the Quran has a heavily historical context. Any one can glance at a book non-contextually and walk away with a view about it's message. Is that approach mature though if it lacks context?
     
  8. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I suppose you are right, but I've carefully read several different versions of the Quran, even proofreading the text as I published them on past websites of mine. One old translation I even translated from an antiquated text of the 1800's to a more modern day text, researching and replacing old words and words that might have been unusual outside of the Quran at that time. Words like niggardly and churlish. Replacing Allah with God. Stuff like that, so for me, at least, it wasn't a glance non-contextually.
     
  9. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I'm sorry if it seemed like I was accusing you of approaching the Quran non-contextually. I apologize. I was speaking generally to folks that might read it and take it no further. I don't know enough about language translation to refute your other point, so I'll have to take your word for it, and see if maybe any Muslims have a reply. Specifically what I mean about context, is that I understand the Quran was being transmitted within a historical setting. A lot of the things it says about violence are in direct reference to events happening then.
     
  10. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I understand, no need for apologizing, I'm sure that many people do evaluate it on just a glance, as I have found they often do with the Bible. I'm certainly not terribly knowledgeable on the subject of the Quran.
     
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  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    While doing some research, I came across what I think is useful information.

    This is some information from the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS), for those who may be thinking that sex between minors is harmless 'child's play', with no serious consequences. Apparently, as usual, views differ from place to place.
    What is statutory rape?
    Statutory rape is a general term used to describe an offense that takes place when an individual (regardless of age) has consensual sexual relations with an individual not old enough to legally consent to the behavior. Stated another way, statutory rape is sexual relations between individuals that would be legal if not for their ages. In accordance with the FBI definition, this Bulletin characterizes statutory rape as nonforcible sexual intercourse with a person who is younger than the statutory age of consent.

    Each state has laws that prohibit sex with a minor. The offender may be an adult or a juvenile. The age of consent varies from state to state as well as the label of and the punishment for the crime. In addition to individual ages, some state laws specifically address sexual contact with a minor by a person who is a defined number of years older than the minor or by a person of authority, such as an athletic coach or teacher

    Juveniles Who Commit Sex Offenses Against Minors
    The National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS) offers perspective on the characteristics of the juvenile sex offender population coming to the attention of law enforcement.

    Key findings from this Bulletin include the following:
    ◆ Juveniles account for more than one third (35.6 percent) of those known to police to have committed sex offenses against minors.
    ◆ Juveniles who commit sex offenses against other children are more likely than adult sex offenders to offend in groups and at schools and to have more male victims and younger victims.
    ◆ The number of youth coming to the attention of police for sex offenses increases sharply at age 12 and plateaus after age 14. Early adolescence is the peak age for offenses against younger children. Offenses against teenagers surge during mid to late adolescence, while offenses against victims under age 12 decline.
    ◆ A small number of juvenile offenders — 1 out of 8—are younger than age 12.
    ◆ Females constitute 7 percent of juveniles who commit sex offenses.
    ◆ Females are found more frequently among younger youth than older youth who commit sex offenses. This group’s offenses involve more multiple-victim and multiple-perpetrator episodes, and they are more likely to have victims who are family members or males.
    ◆ Jurisdictions vary enormously in their concentration of reported juvenile sex offenders, far more so than they vary in their concentration of adult sex offenders.

    Juvenile and Adult Sex Offenders Known to Police
    Juvenile sex offenders comprise more than one-quarter (25.8 percent) of all sex offenders and more than one-third (35.6 percent) of sex offenders against juvenile victims (the group that is the focus of this Bulletin).

    Known juvenile offenders who commit sex offenses against minors span a variety of ages. Five percent are younger than 9 years, and 16 percent are younger than 12 years (figure 1). The rate rises sharply around age 12 and plateaus after age 14. As a proportion of the total, 38 percent are between ages 12 and 14, and 46 percent are between ages 15 and 17. The vast majority (93 percent) are male.

    Juveniles who commit sex offenses against minors are different from adults who commit sex offenses against minors on a number of crucial dimensions captured by NIBRS (table 1, page 5). Juveniles are more likely to offend in groups (24 percent with one or more co-offenders versus 14 percent for adults). They are somewhat more likely to offend against acquaintances (63 percent versus 55 percent).

    Their most serious offense is less likely to be rape (24 percent versus 31 percent) and more likely to be sodomy (13 percent versus 7 percent) or fondling (49 percent versus 42 percent). They are more likely to have a male victim (25 percent versus 13 percent).
    Sex offenses committed by juveniles very often occur in the home, although somewhat less often than their adult counterparts (69 percent versus 80 percent) but are more likely to occur in a school (12 percent versus 2 percent).


    Is it a criminal offense to encourage minors to have sex, and should we fail to report such incidents, are we really taking action to protect children?

    Reporting Juvenile Sex Offenses
    Concern about juvenile sex offenders is a relatively recent phenomenon. Some communities have mobilized quite energetically in recent years to identify and intervene with such youth, conducting extensive training among law enforcement, child protection staff, and educators and establishing specialized treatment programs. In other communities, however, concern about the problem has been slow to develop. Thus, the spectrum of community activity surrounding juvenile sex offenders ranges from very slight in some jurisdictions to exaggerated or disproportionate in other jurisdictions.
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/227763.pdf

    Statutory Rape vs. Forcible Rape
    Statutory rape is not the same as rape. The key difference between statutory rape and rape is that the only deciding factor between legal sexual activity and statutory rape is age. Lack of consent or use of force may increase the extremity of the punishment, but does not need to be involved in the sexual contact for statutory rape to have occurred.

    Minors under the age of consent, as well as mentally handicapped individuals, are not legally considered mentally capable of consenting to sexual activity. However, it must be noted that sexual relations with minors who have not yet reached puberty is generally treated as a much more serious crime than statutory rape, usually called child sexual abuse or molestation.

    Statutory rape can be treated differently depending on the genders of victim and offender. Until the later 1900s, statutory rape involving an adult woman and an adolescent boy was quite often ignored by the law, while a case of statutory rape involving an adult man and an underage girl was treated much more seriously. This type of thinking is still somewhat present today, although the crimes are legally equivalent to any other.


    I think one of the reasons statutory rape becomes prevalent, is because rather than discouraging it at an early age, it is encouraged.

    I also found this interesting - very interesting.
    Age of Consent Around the World
    The legal Age of Consent varies from 11 to 21 years old from country to country around the world. In some countries, there is no legal age of consent but all sexual relations are forbidden outside of marriage.

    So here we are discussing age of consent, and some persons were probably laughing at us.
     
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  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Do you actually need a reference to simply look up a word in the dictionary?

    ALL cultures and societies of humanity have codes and contracts of morals and ethics. They are universal, and functional in each society and culture in history.

    God reveals spiritual laws and principles, which are not morals and ethics. It is foolishly anthropomorphic to think God has morals and ethics, which are very fallible human standards. Morals and ethics do evolve in some ways to parallel God's spiritual laws and principles.

    From: https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...0i67j35i39j0i3j0i131i20i264j0i131.kGti76fqZzw
    mor·al ˈmôrəl/ noun plural noun: morals
    1. 1.
      a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.
      "the moral of this story was that one must see the beauty in what one has"
      synonyms: lesson, message, meaning, significance, signification, import, point, teaching
      "the moral of the story"
    2. 2.
      a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.
      "the corruption of public morals"
      synonyms: moral code, code of ethics, (moral) values, principles, standards, (sense of) morality, scruples
      "he has no morals"
     
    #132 shunyadragon, Oct 7, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Someone recommended I start a discussion on morality.
    Can I use your quote here to start a new thread on morality.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Yes
     
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