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Featured EVE! Legendary heroine of Humanity!

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by blü 2, Mar 5, 2021.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    On the contrary, I'm using only the bible to describe [him].
    That's how Genesis speaks of [him].
    They took other people's land by invasive war. Those others had not offered them any recorded offense.
    So God tells them (Deuteronomy 7:1-2) “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

    You endorse that as a moral position?
    No, that's just completely standard demonizing of your enemy in times of war ─ appallingly normal human behavior.
    I'm the one who's setting out the story as written, and you're the one adding here and subtracting there so it fits your own design.
    I do. That's why the OP quotes Genesis for the Garden story.
    God spells out [his] aims, and they're self-serving and of no noticeable nobility ─ Genesis 3:22-23 again.
    Numbers 31 says
    9 And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and they took as booty all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. ... 14 And Moses was angry with the officers of the army ... who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these caused the people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
    That's a mass rape in anyone's book.
    Examples of human sacrifice ordered by God and carried out are Jephthah's daughter (Judges 11) and the seven sons of Saul (2 Samuel 21) and of course Jesus. Examples where human sacrifice is threatened but averted are Abraham and Isaac (Genesis 22:1-12) and Jonah (Jonah 1:7-15).
    God's said to be omnipotent. Whatever effect [he] was seeking, why not just snap those omnipotent fingers and do it?

    And what, exactly, changed when Jesus died? Forgiveness of sins doesn't appear to have made any difference in the real world. Don't you have to believe in Jesus to get the postmortal benefits? And as been pointed out for centuries, and as it was expressed in Jesus Christ, Superstar,

    You'd have managed better
    If you'd had it planned
    Now why'd you choose such a backward time
    And such a strange land?

    If you'd come today
    You could have reached the whole nation
    Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication​
    No, they were getting great support for their bile from John eg John 8:44 “You [Jews] are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”.
    No, Jesus said (in Mark, Matthew and Luke) he'd be back in the lifetime of some his audience. Do you think there are a few 2,000 year old Jews out there right now?

    My own view is that two millennia are very much more than ample to destroy any credibility that claim might have had.


    All of which keeps us from the point of this thread:

    Eve did good. She brought humankind the knowledge of good and evil. She's a heroine, albeit a legendary one, and we should celebrate her accordingly.

    Because otherwise we'd all still be toddling round in diapers.
     
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  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    You peeked my curiosity, so I looked at the Hebrew Tanach and the English at Genesis 2:17 reads as Good and Bad.
    Either way to me the evil or the bad was: death.
    Breaking the Law would result in the badness of: death.
    To me, No healthy person views death as good.
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But the text doesn't say that. The idea that Adam and Eve were originally intended to live forever is not only not stated anywhere, but baldly denied in Genesis 3:22-23.
     
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  4. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    ok.
    But that was not the question.
    Evil in what sense?
    What kind of knowledge you could get from the tree?
    The knowledge conerning "right and wrong" (evil in the sense of wrong) or concerning "good and bad" /evil in the sense of bad).
    That was the point we are debating here, Blü.

    Citing from Strongs dictionary, the term "evil" as used to describe what the knoweldge from the tree was about.... can mean:
    2 bad, unpleasant, giving pain, unhappiness, misery: ימים רעים evil days (of trial and hardship) Genesis 47:9 (P) Proverbs 15:15; עִנְיָן רע Ecclesiastes 1:13; Ecclesiastes 5:13; עִנְיַן Ecclesiastes 4:8, compare Ecclesiastes 2:17; Ecclesiastes 9:3; הַמַּעֲשֶׂה הָרָע Ecclesiastes 4:3; הדבר

    (bolded mine)

    You see: even days can be referred to by "evil".
    However, a day cannot be morally corrupt, the meaning of evil that you kept claiming for the knowledge of the tree, just bad.
    So it's evil in a sense of bad as opposed to wrong, I think.

    See Strong's Hebrew: 7451. רָע (ra') -- adversity
     
  5. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    Here is something for you...

    The tree they erroneously called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is actually not what the tree is. And the Proof, is in what Jesus His Pre-Eminence said.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    If there really is a tree called that, then that is calling this passage a lie. Because it would mean that an evil tree can bring forth good fruit, and a good tree can bring forth evil fruit.

    Lets also not forget that it is GOD HIMSELF who planted the tree.

    Now to address your question...

    Both Father Adam, and Mother Eve were not in a state, or nature where they could sin. They were not sinners. So how can someone who doesn't have the nature to sin, sin? Many would say it is because we have free will. But it doesn't answer the question. Here is an example. An animal has the nature to kill and eat its prey. Its not a choice they made, it is the instinct born from the nature of the animal. And who gave that nature? Its creator. So is it justice for the Lion to say that GOD made him that way? Yes it is. Even if the Lion tried not to kill and eat its prey, it cannot.
    So there is the nature of the Lion.

    In the same way, before the fall, Man and Woman, Father Adam and Mother Eve, did not have the nature to sin against GOD. Else, you are claiming they were already in a fallen state. And if they were already in a state where they can sin, then what is the fall about? And why did GOD say: And GOD saw it was very good, concerning Man on the 6th day? If a person is very honest, and is a seeker of the truth, they will begin to now ask, what happened exactly?

    Father Adam, and Mother Eve, both did what they had to do to begin their mission that GOD gave them to do. Because the state they were in before the fall was a state that could not fulfil that mission. So they needed to enter into a state where that is possible. I don't want to spell the answer out, i want you to look into it for real, as an event that really happened, and then you should be able to see it for yourself.

    Here is a tip:
    Genesis 2

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.


    Question 1: Ye shall know them by their fruits. What is it that the fruit caused according to what was written?
    Question 2: It is written that Mother Eve was given to Adam as a help meet for him. But the events of the story say otherwise. GOD is all knowing, how was she a help meet for him?
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Good and evil in a moral sense, of course.

    It's not called "the tree of the knowledge of better and worse investments" for instance. Or "the tree of better and worse cake decorating".

    And it was brilliant of Eve, even in legend, to secure the knowledge of morality for humankind. God's motives in withholding it were express and ignoble.
     
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  7. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    The reason that came in Genesis 3:22-23, was because the state that the fall gave them should not be reversed by them.

    They also wrote: Now man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil...

    So man is now like GOD in the fall? is GOD in a fallen state?

    Genesis 1:26
    Let us make man in our image after our likeness...

    So when was Man like GOD? Before the fall or in the fall?
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I noted 14 translations of Genesis and every one of them translated it as the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". So I'm happy that this is what the story says.
    Jesus has zero pre-eminence in the Tanakh. He's not mentioned even once.
    So what?
    You're confusing yourself. The context for the Garden's tree and for Jesus' tree are totally distinct.
    So what? That's what happens in reality all day and every day.
    So the story tells us. So what?
    Good that we can agree on that much.
    However, that view is not present in the Garden story.

    And Eve is still a (legendary) heroine of mankind for bringing humans knowledge of good and evil.
     
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  9. Yahcubs777

    Yahcubs777 Active Member

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    So what? The context lol.... It is impossible for a good tree to bring forth evil fruit. And vice versa. What is a good fruit and an evil fruit? For the analogy to even make sense, there has to be a level of consistency. The tree they ate from is not what they called it. That was a parable spoken to manifest the evil in the hearts of lucifer and cohorts. The tree is actually the tree of mortality, which is why the tree of life was mentioned. And why was mortality required? For Procreation. The blood cell system that cannot inherit the kingdom, was required for procreation to become possible....

    Jesus His Pre-Eminence is GOD. Adam His Eminence is the Son of GOD.
     
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I disagree with you that Eve secured the knowledge of morality for humankind and that God withheld it. For bad motives even.
    See below:
    according to you.
    However, you have nothing to back your hypothesis up that it could not potentially be good and evil in a sense of adversity.
    This is what the word means, according to Strong-s dictionary:




    Strong's Concordance
    ra': adversity
    Original Word: רַע
    Part of Speech: Adjective; noun masculine; noun feminine
    Transliteration: ra'
    Phonetic Spelling: (rah)
    Definition: bad, evil
    Brown-Driver-Briggs
    I. רַע226 adjective bad, evil (distinction from noun, and verb Perfect 3masculine singular, is sometimes not easy, and opinions differ); — masculine singular רַע Genesis 6:5 +; רָ֑ע Genesis 31:24 +; plural רָעַים Genesis 13:13 +; construct רָעֵי Ezekiel 7:24 (strike out Co); feminine singular רָעָה Genesis 37:2 37t. (this form usually noun), plural רָעוֺת Genesis 28:8 14t.; רָעֹת Genesis 41:27 (18 t. noun); —
    1 bad, disagreeable, malignant: of a woman, רָעָה בְּעֵינֵי Exodus 21:8 (E; perhaps, with changed accent, verb 3feminine singular רָ֫עָה) disagreeable, unpleasing in the eyes of, plural Genesis 28:8 (P); of poisonous herb 2 Kings 4:41, malignant boils Deuteronomy 28:35; Job 2:7, diseases Deuteronomy 7:15; Deuteronomy 28:59; 2Chronicles 21:19; Ecclesiastes 6:2, deadly sword Psalm 144:10, arrows Ezekiel 5:16, severe judgments Ezekiel 14:21, wonders Deuteronomy 6:22; מַלְאֲכֵי רָעִים Psalm 78:49 = fierce messengers (of God; Ew§ 287 a Ges§ 130e), wild beasts Genesis 37:20,33 (JE) Leviticus 26:6 (H) Ezekiel 5:17; Ezekiel 14:15,21; Ezekiel 34:25; unclean thing Deuteronomy 23:10.

    2 bad, unpleasant, giving pain, unhappiness, misery: ימים רעים evil days (of trial and hardship) Genesis 47:9 (P) Proverbs 15:15; עִנְיָן רע Ecclesiastes 1:13; Ecclesiastes 5:13; עִנְיַן Ecclesiastes 4:8, compare Ecclesiastes 2:17; Ecclesiastes 9:3; הַמַּעֲשֶׂה הָרָע Ecclesiastes 4:3; הדבר הרע evil report Exodus 33:4 (J), so דִּבָּה רָעָה Genesis 37:2 (JE) Numbers 14:37 (P), שׁם רע Deuteronomy 22:14,19; Nehemiah 6:13, שְׁמוּעָה רָעָה Jeremiah 49:23; Psalm 112:7; of things: painful discipline Proverbs 15:10, evil occurrence 1 Kings 5:18, evil (-bringing) net Ecclesiastes 9:12, instruments Isaiah 32:7: כל הדבר הרע Joshua 23:15 (D) all evil (injurious) things; רַע it is bad, harmful Isaiah 3:11 Jeremiah 2:19; of speech, דבּר, רעאו טוב Genesis 24:50 (J) in proverb, speak bad or good = anything at all, מטוב עד רע Genesis 31:24,29 (E), לְמֵרָע ועד טוב 2 Samuel 13:22, of the divine spirit as producing an ecstatic state of frenzy and violence 1 Samuel 16:14,15,16,23; 1 Samuel 18:10; 1 Samuel 19:9 (see רוּח 9).

    3 evil, displeasing עָשָׂח רָ֔ע בְּעֵינֵי סַרְנֵי פְלשְׁתִּים 1 Samuel 29:7.

    4 bad of its kind, land Numbers 13:19 (J), place Numbers 20:5 (JE), waters 2 Kings 2:19, figs Jeremiah 24:2,3(twice in verse); Jeremiah 24:8, kine Genesis 41:3,4,19,20,21,27 (E), מוּם רע Deuteronomy 15:21, compare Deuteronomy 17:1.

    5 bad, i.e. of low value Leviticus 27:10 (twice in verse); Leviticus 27:12,14,33 (H), compare Malachi 1:8 (twice in verse); רַע רַע יאֹמַר מַקּוֺנֶה Proverbs 20:14 (twice in verse).

    6 + מִן comparative, worse than, 2 Samuel 19:8; as superlative, רָעֵי גוֺיִם Ezekiel 7:24 worst of nations (strike out Co).

    7 sad, unhappy: לֶברָֿע֑ sad heart (compare opposed to טוב, יטב) Proverbs 25:20; of face Genesis 40:7 (E) Nehemiah 2:2; רע לְפָנָיו Nehemiah 2:1.

    8 חָשַׁב מַחֲשֶׁבֶת(ה)רָעָה devise evil (hurtful) device Ezekiel 38:10; Esther 9:25.

    9 bad, unkind, vicious in disposition or temper: וְלֵברָֿ֑ע when the mind is vicious, harmful Proverbs 26:23; רַע עָ֑יִן one evil of eye Proverbs 23:6; Proverbs 28:22; רוּחַ רָעָה Judges 9:23 bad temper.

    10 ethically bad, evil, wicked:

    [...]

    (these are the ways you can translate it as an adjective. Click here for more: Strong's Hebrew: 7451. רָע (ra') -- adversity)
     
  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Many Jews though Him to be the Messiah and wanted Him to save them from the Romans. Jesus had bigger things to do, the things prophesied of Him in the Hebrew scriptures.
    Some people accept Jesus and some do not.

    An omnipotent God does not need to worry about His power.

    Yes being expelled from the garden was the result of eating the fruit. So you agree what eating the fruit is the cause of their and our dying.
    And yes we knew they did not die physically the same day and that the text does not mean that they would die physically that same day. As I said, who would write the story as being true when they knew it said that they would die physically the same day and knew that they did not?

    It would have been a better thing to do if she stayed innocent and trusted God and did what He said.
    I'm sure the history of the earth would have been rather different.
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    But you are not using it in the context of who and what God is said to be in the Bible and the context of the overall story with the end result being worth the intervening trouble.

    The scriptures say that God was execution His judgement on the Canaanites.
    God has a greater right to judge us humans than the American supreme court.
    It's not a matter of moral positions.

    Not in my book.

    God did not order those deaths, and God knew that Isaac would not be killed and Jonah has nothing to do with human sacrifice.

    God considers more things than just getting a quick fix.
    Jesus coming in a backward time etc has changed the whole world and we are now reaping the benefits of Jesus influence on the world. We do not realise that modern western attitudes to fellow humans were not that wonderful in Jesus day, we were not all seen as equals.
    But we still go right on sinning just as our first parents did even though we supposedly know good and evil. I guess Eve should have just trusted God and obeyed His words.

    Jesus was not saying all Jews were and are like that. Jesus was telling the people He was speaking to what He thought of them.
    No He didn't.

    If they had not eaten the fruit maybe one of their children would have, I don't know.
    If nobody ate it then God may have eventually allowed us to eat it without dying. Thus making it not a sin.
    If nobody ate it then we may have all been good. That would be a great thing for the world, if everyone was good, like Jesus was.
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Then the good fruit in this case is knowledge of good and evil.

    That knowledge is an excellent thing for humans to have.
    That's not what the bible says. The five different versions of Jesus in the NT ─ those of Paul, and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John ─ each expressly deny they're God and never claim to be God. The elevation of Jesus to God status doesn't occur till the 4th century CE when in response to political pressure to do just that, the Trinity doctrine is invented ─ a doctrine which the churches freely concede is incoherent as a version of monotheism ─ and in fact results in three gods.
     
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  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Why? That's what the Garden story is all about.
    Then what does the text mean when it says the eyes of both of them were opened and they saw (for the first time) that they were naked?
    And whatever Strong says, 14 sets of translators agree the tree's name is "knowledge of good and evil".

    When you wake up with a toothache, when you miss the train, when you jam your finger in the car door, when the soggy end of your paper bag lets your fifth fall to the ground and smash, is that 'evil'? Don't be silly. The Garden story is a tale of how humans obtained moral awareness.
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    You are using my name wrongly in the quotes, please be more careful when you quote. :)
     
  16. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Was it not the reason why they ate the fruit? If they wanted to know, then they could have asked as well. But I agree, the real reason was not that they wanted to know. I believe the real reason was that the woman wanted to become God, and the man ate just because he couldn’t resist the woman.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Saving them from the Romans is what a real Jewish messiah would do. Jesus was no more savior of the Jews than Christian antisemitism has been.
    Assuming there was an historical Jesus, Jesus was not a Jewish messiah, not a Jewish prophet, not a Jewish savior.
    Very clearly the God of the Garden story is not omnipotent, any more than [he]'s the only God. All that comes later.
    Quote me the words of the Garden story that says God expelled them from the Garden because they ate the fruit. (Hint: You'll find nothing of the kind.)
    On the exact contrary, sin, original sin, the Fall of Man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer and so on are NEVER mentioned in the story. If you'd ever read it, you'd know that without my telling you.
    So the snake was correct and God was at best mistaken.
    She was denied knowledge of good and evil. So she was incapable of sin. And (in the story) she did mankind a great favor.

    So she should be acknowledged as a (legendary) heroine of Mankind.
     
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  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Cute theory! Love it!

    Monotheistic Eve in charge of the universe!

    About time too, by golly!
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I'm using exactly and only what God is said to be in the Garden story. [He] gives [his] reasons, and they're not moral reasons but all about protecting [his] own power.
    What judgment? What did the Canaanites actually do except have their own God? The Hindus, the Japanese, the theistic Buddhists, still have their own gods, and nothing happens to them.
    It's all a matter of moral positions. Either God is moral in [his] thought and actions or [he]'s just another despot and has no claim at all on human respect.
    The text says explicitly that [he] did exactly that, in each case. That [he] changed [his] mind regarding Isaac and Jonah is neitehr here nor there ─ everyone involved believed [he]'d do it, and as Jephthah's daughter and the sons of Saul and (for Christians) Jesus shows, they were absolutely correct.
    There God and I differ. Were I omnipotent &c, I'd get straight to the point and have it all fixed by lunchtime.
    According to the Pew surveys, there'll be more Muslims than Christians in another twenty years or so. What will that prove?
    Certainly everyone in the bible is happy with slavery and the inferior status of women, and murderous religious intolerance. God [him]self affirms and re-affirms those values.
    Maybe she would have if [he]'d just let her have knowledge of good and evil,
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Eve gives her reasons at Genesis 3:6.

    Remember that at the time she had, through no fault of her own, no knowledge of good and evil.
     
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