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The Jews sadly ignored the cry of God through His prophets for roughly the same amount of time and still continue to reject Christ until this time. How do you claim that because Christians have held onto the same doctrine for 2000 years give you faith that they are correct? I would get into the history of the church and reveal where it all went wrong but it is impossible to post all that history on a forum. Instead, I will tell you what went wrong by answering your question at the end of this paragraph.It is your particularly odd interpretation of the quoted Scriptures that I have a problem with, not the Scriptures themselves. Orthodox, mainstream Christians have had absolutely no problem with these verses for 2,000 years, so please don't pretend like we have ignored them. It is sadly you who ignores blatantly obvious Scriptures and the teachings of the Church for 2,000 years with your innovative universalism:
First of all let us deal with the translation into Eternal and forever and ever."Then He (Jesus) will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (aionios, not everlasting) fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into everlasting (aionios, not everlasting) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios, not eternal) life.' " Matt. 26:41, 46
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting (aionios, not everlasting) destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 1:9
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever (aions ice aions, age to age); and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev. 14:11
While these verses are literally unsurmountable for your theory that punishment is only temporal, I'm also interested as to how you interpret verses such as this:
"For many are called, but few are chosen."(the whole living church whether catholic or Christian are the called but very few are chosen out of this system. See below) Matt. 22:14 If only a few are chosen, and this is the reason that some are cast into "outer darkness" (verse 13), how can you possibly believe that all are elected to salvation in heaven? (not all are ELECTED to the kingdom but all are saved by Grace through Christ.)
Simply because I believe the promises of Christ to always be with His Church and to guide them into all truth, as the pillar and ground of truth that the Church is. I would go deeper into this but it would be getting off track.Truth101 said:FerverentGodSeeker Said: The Jews sadly ignored the cry of God through His prophets for roughly the same amount of time and still continue to reject Christ until this time. How do you claim that because Christians have held onto the same doctrine for 2000 years give you faith that they are correct?
The fact that the words are BASED upon the root words in Greek for "age" etc, does not negate the widely accepted fact among Greek scholars that the words themselves mean "forever", "eternal", etc. For example:
First of all let us deal with the translation into Eternal and forever and ever.
Lets look to Strongs definitions to get a clearer picture of what the problem is with the definitions given by Dr strong.
In many Bibles the Greek word: "aion" is translated as "forever," and "aionios" is translated, "everlasting," or "eternal."
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end." Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aionios) life." John 3:16
Truth101's translation: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should have life for a little while."
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. (same Greek phrase as the "torment forever and ever" verse earlier)" Rev. 7:12
Truth101's translation: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God for a little while."
As I hope you can see, you cannot have it both ways. The Greek phrases you claim are only indicative of a limited time are clearly used throughout Scripture with reference to eternality. For the many times that the Greek aionios is used to denote eternal punishment, it is used even more times to denote eternal LIFE, and yet I don't see you claiming that salvation is only temporary.
A modified form of "aion", i.e. "aionios", is what is being referred to in reference to eternality."Aion never means anything more that an age. Furthermore if Aion means eternity, how come we find aion is also pluralised? If eternity is without beginning or end how can we have more than one if there is nothing bigger?
No, I wouldn't disagree.
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (aionios) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Here we are told that the kingdom is an everlasting one. And this means without end. Would you disagree?
If you honestly interpret numbers literally in a symbolic vision , I'm not seeing how you possibly lecture me on correct Biblical interpretation.Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (thousand years, not forever)
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The end of what? It never says God stops reigning, God (and Christ) are the same yesterday, today and forever. He is eternally King.1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end
FerventGodSeeker
Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion and cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun it is derived from. With this said we know that aion means an age so how do the definitions of aionios compare with this? according to Dr strong the adjective takes on a greater meaning.The fact that the words are BASED upon the root words in Greek for "age" etc, does not negate the widely accepted fact among Greek scholars that the words themselves mean "forever", "eternal", etc. For example:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aionios) life." John 3:16
Truth101's translation: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should have life for a little while."
I am not saying it lasts for exactly 1000 years but what is clear is that it is not eternal. Furthermore, if you could give me your interpretation as to what the symbolic meaning of this number is that would be great. I have my understanding but I would like to here what yours is.If you honestly interpret numbers literally in a symbolic vision , I'm not seeing how you possibly lecture me on correct Biblical interpretation.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, (end of the kingdom)when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.The end of what? It never says God stops reigning, God (and Christ) are the same yesterday, today and forever. He is eternally King.
You will find that this is a false statement since the damage has already been done the voice of reason is seldom heard. For example I have an amazingly huge list of scholars including many Geek and their quotes who are in opposition to what you state is a widely accepted fact by them. I will list a few and If you would like all of them I can private message you with the rest. Take care to actually read what is being said by them.The fact that the words are BASED upon the root words in Greek for "age" etc, does not negate the widely accepted fact among Greek scholars that the words themselves mean "forever", "eternal", etc
I guess you yourself are able to translated from the original manuscripts into english without flaw because you insist that it alll comes from the mind of men and trust nothing. I didnt say I trust these scholars anymore than I trust the scholars that believe aionios means eternal. My very point is to search out all to test the spirit by comparing it to scripture which was also translated by likeminded "Dr's". How can you trust the king james translators and the niv translators or any translators from the bibles you use to make your claims? All english translations are exactly that.....translations. The list I offered was of translators of certain bibles. You trust the KGV, and you hold this version as though it was devinely inspired and flawless. You err, just as you err by not knowing the scriptures. It is by usage that a word is defined and this has been my method throughout our discussions. You just refuse to listen to truth and continue to twist the scriptures as you squirm to find a way (by any means) to just merely prove me wrong. You have no interest in truth as I said before. You are only after your own glory.All the above books came from the Mind of Man!
How trustworthy is that?
This may fatigue you but it is not I but the Lord who is in me where I draw my strength. I never grow tired because it is by the spirit that I understand. It is true you will not find life in books, the life comes directly from God. We are to live in spirit and in truth and everything that we do should be in the spirit and in truth. It is only God who can carry us there. I search out everything to find the truth. If our translations have flaws I want to know what they are, unlike you who trust every word in a trnslated bible yet you say that everything that comes from the mind of man is carnal and merely human understanding. To escape your own hypocritical words you would need to learn both aramaic, ancient hebrew and ancient greek in order to go directly to the unadulterated word of God (all available manuscripts)without flaw. It is you who has taken the word of man and believed it when God is trying to show you the false doctrine and you just keep on calling it human reasoning. You call it human reasoning because you are indoctrinated and cannot see the truth for all the lies of religion and mistranslations. 1600 years of deception does not make anything true just because its been around for so long.In fact, if you constantly waste your time in this endless sea of confusion, you will become physically and mentallyfatigue.
Studying these books: You will grow tired of the long hours of work you have done.
Studying these books: You will grow weary, because there is no life in them
logician said:Hell = ignorant , barbaric theory.
So then God cannot or will not give us life that goes on forever? If you do believe that the life He gives us will go on forever, please cite me the verse you would use to demonstrate this."God so loved the world that He gave His only beggotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should have aionios life." Because aionios is an adjective and is pertaining to an age then it is clearly apparent that it is refering to a specific age. Those who believe in Him will have life in the kingdom age while all others remain in aionios death through this age. They are not ressurrected until the end of this kingdom age. This is why they recieve "aionios death", aionios here is pertaining to death through the kingdom age but following this specific age they will be ressurrected.
The verses in question regarding "eternal life" say nothing about life that simply exists in the context of a future temporal kingdom. You believe such a kingdom, and therefore you ASSUME that the "aionios" life that God gives us pertains to that time, although you have no contextual reason to do so. The verses simply state that God will grant us eternal life. You claim this life He gives us is only for an age. When you make this argument, you claim too much. By doing so, you can't point to any verse in the Bible which states that our life will extened indefinitely, because every reference to eternal life in the New Testament employs the Greek words and phrases in question. You therefore have no reason to believe that your life will extend beyond the temporal reign of Christ.You stated I cannot have it both ways yet it works both ways the same. They are both temporal. The life goes on but not in the same state of ruling and reigning with Christ or being put through the fire. Both are temporal. The fire is for purifying, it is remedial. It will burn away all hay and stubble (wickedness, disobedience, etc.) As the demon possessed man they will come out being made whole washed clean in their right mind giving God the glory for all they have recieved.
The Catholic Church traditionally holds to Saint Augustine's interpretation of Revelation and the end times, usually referred to in modern times as "amillenialism." We believe that the Church is essentially the Kingdom of God, and that the Church will continue to exist for an indefinite duration (symbolically 1,000 years) on this Earth until Christ returns.I am not saying it lasts for exactly 1000 years but what is clear is that it is not eternal. Furthermore, if you could give me your interpretation as to what the symbolic meaning of this number is that would be great. I have my understanding but I would like to here what yours is.
That's because it doesn't Notice how it says that He will give His kingdom to the Father (also God). God will continue to reign eternally because He is King and eternally the same.1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, (end of the kingdom)when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
These words are so clear that it amazes me how you cannot see. You say "it never says that God stops reigning."
No, that's how Christ's reign as High Priest ends. Once all enemies have been defeated when Christ returns, He will hand the kingdom over to His Father: how can He hand it over if it no longer exists?The kingdom age is Christs rule and reign with His elect. It is God the Father who puts everything under Christ. It is Christs rulership until He puts it down. That is how this kingdom ends.
How do you know God is eternal? Where does the New Testament say this?I have heard the argumant that because the word aionios is used as a description of God, for example "the everlasting (aionios) God" that this word must mean eternity and nothing less because God himself is eternal.
Well, Although it is true that God is eternal (without beginning and end) does not for a second prove tthat this word means eternal.
Truth101 said:The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."
While you're getting closer, even this author can't help but admit that the word denotes a period of indefinite ages, not necesarily just one.Elliots Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aioniosit must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Untrue, because it can indicate an indefinite duration into the future, even though it has a beginning which other things came before. The scholars I cited deal with this, if you would like me to cite them more extensively I can.Hastings Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlastingnonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):
The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.
You're making my job incredibly easy with quotes like this. The word does not signify life in one particular age as you claim, but rather life in indefinite ages. Thank you for again proving my point.Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
Nice try, but you misquoted him. In the volume I have, on page 60 that you cited from he states, "The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation..."Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting. Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.
Would you mind citing one of these passages? In what passage is the word used to describe something which is not intrinsically endless (besides condemnation, hell, etc, which is the bone of contention here)?Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are endless does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant endless; and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."
As you can see there are many scholars who understand what I am trying to help you understand.
Would you mind citing one of these passages? In what passage is the word used to describe something which is not intrinsically endless (besides condemnation, hell, etc, which is the bone of contention here)?
I never said aionios was limited to belonging only to an age. Aion itself in the singular is however only speaking of one indefinate specific period of time. Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion and is pertaining to or belonging to an age or a succession of ages but nevertheless these words are still limited in duration no matter how long they may be.Precisely...it signifies belonging to, at the very least, an indefinite number of AGES, not just one age as you seem to think it means.
Just so we're clear, the word "aion" is not translated "forever" here, as you seem to think. It is the phrase "eis tous aionios."Truth101 said:Ferverentgodseeker said:
I will kill to birds with one stone here. You ask here to give you one of these passages and as well the scripture luke 1:33 which your scholar quoted as proof that aionios must mean eternal. Lets look.
Luke 1:33 "and He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever (aion) ; and of His kingdom there shall be no end."Or unless you're interpretation is wrong...Jesus does not rule over the house of Jacob forever unless Paul lied when he stated that He rules only until he has put down all enemies.
It doesn't simply say that all that was in His kingdom continues, but rather it states that the kingdom itself continues, and it still calls it HIS Kingdom, that will never end. Sorry, no Greek word games to play there, that second phrase does not use any variation of "aion." This is a blatant contradiction of your view.Then He turns the kingdom over to His Father.
All that is OF HIS KINGDOM continues
No, He reigns "eis tous aionios", "to/into indefinite ages," not just one age as you were earlier claiming. Big, huge difference.but Jesus as King of the Kingdom ends. Jesus reigns for aions (or proper english translation "eons") not forever.
Here are just a couple more scriptures in which "aionios" (or proper english translation, eonian)cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:
This phrase is also translated "since time began." (2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 1:2)Rom. 16:25" according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [ aionios] began. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world." The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: " in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal."Eternity is an infinite amount of time....I thought that was rather obvious.What does "time," let alone "timeS" have to do with "eternity?"
No, I don't. It is perfectly reasonable to interpret these phrases as meaning that the indefinite number/amount of ages, extendingly indefinitely into the future, began at some point in time, and that God and His plans precede that point.And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ETERNALLY? Do you not see a problema CONTRADICTION in all of this?
To allay means "to put to rest; quiet, calm; to lessen, relieve, alleviate." God will allay sorrow and grief for all eternity, by not allowing us to ever experience it again.II Thes. 2:16" and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?"
You think we will never hope for anything once we get to heaven? I certainly think we will. Considering that we're going to be around for all eternity, I certainly hope God constantly shows us new facets of His majesty and glory constantly, so that we constantly have something to hope for. Your argument here is weak at best.How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.
LOL. The entire basis of your argument is that all the references to "aionios" in the Bible (aionios life, aionios punishment, even aionios God) refer to one specific age, the future temporal kingdom of Christ. It's one thing to say, "Ok, I was wrong," or "Ok, I phrased that wrongly," but don't pretend like you haven't been saying what you have been saying all along.I never said aionios was limited to belonging only to an age.
Due to the fact that aionios refers to an indefinite number of ages into the future, the Greeks used it as a reference to eternality.Aion itself in the singular is however only speaking of one indefinate specific period of time. Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion and is pertaining to or belonging to an age or a succession of ages but nevertheless these words are still limited in duration no matter how long they may be.
FGS