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Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Truth101, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Anyone who wishes to believe that God will endlessly torture billions of His creation, consider the following. Writing in red are quotes from Ray Smith.

    The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600’s:
    Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"
    The "hell" of the 21st Century:
    The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

    Does anyone believe that these two definitions of "hell" have anything whatsoever in common with each other? Then how is it even in the realm of possibility that the Christian definition of hell today can be a translation for a word that is also to this day, translated three times as "pit," and thirty-one times as "grave.

    Okay then, here are ten bold key words which define "hell." If these are the proper words and phrases to describe and define "hell" in our English Bibles, then we should find these ten words scattered all through the verses of Scripture which speak of sheol/grave/hell.
    Let us now go through all 31 verses of Scripture in which the translated sheol into the English word hell, and count all of the times that we find the words: condemned souls, devils, eternal punishment, Satan, separation of God, evil, misery, discord or destruction, torment, anguish.
    1. condemned souls is foundZERO times 2. devilsZERO times 3. eternal punishment (or punish alone)ZERO times 4. SatanZERO times 5. separation of GodZERO times 6. evilZERO times 7. miseryZERO times 8. discord or destructionZERO times 9. tormentZERO times10. anguishZERO times
    Common sense seems to be absent here.

    God Bless, Dave




     
  2. mattp

    mattp Member

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    I enjoy your reasoning. Also consider that the Hebrew word translated Hell is sheol and in Greek is hades. The literal translation for both of these in the common grave.
    Also gehenna which was the place where garbage was destroyed by fire. Something can only be destroyed once.
     
  3. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The suffering of Hell that is often compared to burning, fire or unquenchable anguish is only the guilt and pain of being separated from God. Hell has taken upon itself a different denotation than originally intended, but big whoop. Webster's Dictionary does not transcend religion as far as I'm concerned.
     
  4. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    Hell has too many meaning I thinks.
     
  5. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. If you're Mormon there are a bunch more!
     
  6. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Revelation 21:8

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

    Doctrine and Covenants 63:5

    Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.


    The suffering of hell is aweful
    It is a consuming fire

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  7. mattp

    mattp Member

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    What in the world are you talking about?:sorry1:
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Don't worry if you don't understand that, matt. None of the rest of us do either.
     
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  9. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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  10. mattp

    mattp Member

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    Think also of this. When God told Adam and Eve the consequences for disobeying what did he say? Do not eat the friut, or else you will burn forever in Hell. Of course not. In the beggining God created Heaven and Earth and Hell. I dont think so. John 3:16 did God give his only begotten so we would not burn forever in Hell? No, rather, so we might not be destoyed. I said it before and ill say it again, you can only be destroyed once.
     
  11. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Think about what is said that must be accomplished before one will see salvation and enter the kingdom. And lets learn what the second death really is.

    Mat 16:24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

    Before any can be saved they must first die to themselves for Jesus sake. Now think about the scripture you used to prove that the second death is a painful one. The first death is a physical death everything in creation will face. The second death which you quoted refers to the death of ones self.
    Those who lose their life in this life to fullfill the will of God will find themselves in life in the Kingdom age. They are experiencing the second death here on earth before their physical death.
    Those that do not and save their own lives here will have to experience losing their lives through judgment UNTIL they learn righteousness. This will take place after the 1000 years are fullfilled when they are ressurrected unto judgment. The word teaches us that the dead lived not again untill the 1000 years are finished.

    Rev 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    The scriptures you quoted do not fit with your interpretaion of what they are saying.
    The theolgy of eternal punishment merely opens up a pandoras box of confusion and deception.

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    The same all who recieved condemnation is the same all who recieved the FREE GIFT unto justification. How many? ALLLL!

    So if MOST of these people are to spend ETERNITY in torment seperated from God I would really like to know who all these justified people are.

    Lets continue where we left off in Romans here,
    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

    (Tell me, How can grace much more abound over the offence if the offence still sends billions into an eternal fiery torment. It would appear that the offence had much much more abounded over the grace wouldnt you say?)

    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    In conclusion, from just these few (out of many) scriptures, The punishment to come for all those disobedient souls would have to be a remedial, corrective punishment wouldnt it? The torment in the scriptures you quoted is not the torment of eternal punishment but a remedial corrective punishment to bring these lost to a place where they do die to self and learn righteousness. This is the second death.

    God Bless, Dave





     
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  12. sparc872

    sparc872 Active Member

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    Excellent post Truth. I was trying to say the exact same thing before but was never able to get it out with the same sort of impact as yoiu have.
     
  13. SlapHappyScientologist

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    From Wikipedia...

    go to wikipedia, and search for "The Problem of Hell."

    the various arguments pertaining to the human mind and structure, summarily, come to the conclusion that the existence of hell, even in a spiritual reality, is impossible and ridiculous.
     
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  14. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Hades is not really hell, for the Greek religion. It is abode of the dead, so everyone goes there. Hades is a name for the entire Netherworld or the Underworld. Erebus is the upper level of Hades.

    The Plain of Asphodel is where most people will go to, after being judged. There is no joy or sorrow here, and no pain or pleasure. There are no memories of their lives.

    The Elysian Field or Elysium is like heaven, as well as the Isles of the Blessed. But it is not heaven; it is just a better place for any mortal to spend the afterlife. The real heaven is the home of gods, which is Olympus, and only the greatest, like Heracles (Hercules, who is a demi-god), could reach this heaven.

    Hell to the Greeks is Tartarus, the deepest region of Hades, and only reserved for the most wicked.

    See House of Hades at Timeless Myths for more details about Hades.
     
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  15. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    The reason so many over the last 1600 years have adopted this blasphemous eternal torment idea is due to the translation of the words aion, aions and aionious. The scholarship used in the translation of these words just astounds me. What I will show you here is just a fraction of the evidence I hold to prove that eternity, everlasting and evermore were never intended to be the proper translation from the original words.
    In many bibles the Greek word "aion", "aions" is translated "ever" or "forever" and "aionios" is translated "everlasting" or "eternal".

    · There was time BEFORE the aions (I Cor. 2:7, "BEFORE the eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal .
    ·
    ·
    God MADE the aions (Heb. 1:2, "MAKES the eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
    ·
    ·
    There were aions in the PAST (Col. 1:26, "hid FROM eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
    ·
    ·
    This PRESENT age is called an aion (Gal. 1:4, "the PRESENT wicked eon"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
    ·
    ·
    This PRESENT age will come to an END (Mat. 24:3, "The END [or conclusion] of the eon"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
    ·
    ·
    There is coming another aion AFTER this present aion (Luke 18:30, "the eon TO COME"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
    ·
    ·
    There are, in fact, coming multiples or FUTURE AIONS (Eph. 2:7, "the ONCOMING AIONS). Therefore, NOT eternal.
    ·
    ·
    Some aions are even contrasted with OTHER AIONS (Eph. 3:21, "the eon OF the eons"). Therefore, NOT ETERNAL.
    ·
    ·
    All aions will come to all their ENDS (I Cor. 10:11, "the CONSUMMATIONS [plural] of the eons [plural]." Therefore, obviously not meant to be eternal!!
    Scriptural usage proves these words do not under any circumstance mean anything beyond ages or eons. So why do most modern bibles define it as such in their translations?
    We see with scriptural usage these words have nothing to do with eternity or everlasting or evermore. Lets take a look at Strong’ Greek dictionary to see the definitions given for these words "aion" and "aionios".
    Ever "aion" #165: "an age", "perpetuity", "the world", A messianic period (present or future)", "age", "course", "eternal", "(for) ever (-more)".
    Everlasting "aionios" #166: "perpetual", "eternal", "for ever", "everlasting", "world (began)".
    Let’s define the word "hour" the same way.
    Hour: "sixty minutes", "hourly", "a time", "times", "twenty four hours", "a week". "one month", "decade".
    Doesn’t sound right does it? That’s because it’s not. "aion" cannot mean "an age" and mean "eternal" at the same time just like "hour" cannot mean anything but an hour, and to claim otherwise carries with it a biased opinion which is not good scholarship.

    In my historical studies of the early church I have learned that this particular translation problem was not a mistake but was purposefully done in order to put fear into the hearts of the early church to keep control and power over the people. And this makes perfect sense as to why grammer of a sixth grade level would be butchered in this manner.

    Aion, Aions simply translated in their proper context mean age, ages or generation, generations. Aionious on the other hand is more of a quality of life rather than quantity.

    God Bless, Dave
     
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  16. Augustine

    Augustine Member

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    Here is an image of hell from the mouth of Christ in the form of a parable:

    Lazarus and the Rich Man

    As seen in this parable, hell is a place of torment. It is a place of separation (from the saved and unsaved), and there was no way out for rich man, who wished to be spared some of the pain of the fire.

    Of course, hell is not the final spot for damned souls but is a holding place for them before their final destruction on the day of judgment:

    The only way that one may have his or her name written in the book of life is through Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death on our behalf:

    Thus hell is repository of damned souls until their final destruction in the lake of fire, this repository is full of torment, and is a separation from those saved. There is no hope for souls in hell as they have rejected Christ’s mercy.
     
  17. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    You will need to listen carefully to the SYMBOLIC meaning of this parable. This is not a literal story of a rich person being tormented in a literal fire. I will quote the scripture and comment on certain aspects of this parable.

    19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.(what does his clothing have to do with anything? Was it just thrown in there to fill in space?) 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.(what did Lazerus do to recieve comfort at abrahams side? Was it simply because he was poor?) [6] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment,(Now what was the rich mans sin to put him into hell? Was it because he was rich?) he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.(why just a finger? If he is in the flames of eternal torment one drop of water is not going to comfort anyone.) ’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.(So just because the rich man lived well he has to suffer for it? Where is there any mention of any sin in these verses merriting any punishment?) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers (Why five brothers? Was this just put in here to fill space as well?)[7]—so that he may warn them,(warn them of what? Not to get rich?:cover: ) lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets(lets think about this as well. If this guy is in eternal torments than how can anyone be warned of anything when all creation is either in hell or heaven? After judgment, there is no one left to repent of anything. The dead are dead at this point until the resurrection and it is either to life or death.) . ; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.(awsome point here. In other words nothing will change their mind one way or another.)’” -Luke 16:19-31 (ESV)

    First of all the rich man is clearly Jewish not Gentile since his family all have Moses and the prophets. As I explain some of this parable you will also learn that Lazarus is a representation of the Gentiles. This was a parable to explain to everyone what God was about to do through Christ. He was taking the promises of God from the Jews (temporarily) and giving them to the Gentiles.
    Now the five brothers of this rich man are Judah's five brothers. Remember Judah had 11 brothers but only five others were of the same mother. These are the other five brothers the rich man is speaking of. The purple he wore represents royalty. Clearly it is the tribe of Judah which had all the blessings of God.(this is a big study and just dont have enough time to get into it right now but maybe Ill start a new thread on this.)
    Were are told throughout scripture that God has truned His blessings over to the Gentiles in order to provoke the Jews to jelousy to eventually cause them to repent. For now God is dealing with the Gentiles and giving them the comfort that the Jews once had.
    Now the Jews are in a torment (not in literal fire) being seperated from God and the knowledge which God had bestowed upon the Gentiles creating a great chasm between the two.
    This torment is clearly seen through the last 2000 years from the time Jesus spoke this parable.
    Parables are never to be taken literaly. If you chose to take them literaly then you lose a great deal of spiritual insight of the plan and purpose of God for His creation.
    This scripture is far from describing an ETERNAL final punishment in literal fire.
    We know that the Jews have a promise of restoration to be grafted back into the tree from which they once had their foundation.
    I can get even deeper into this parable but as you can see my post is long enough and if I told you theres about 40 pages needed to explian it properly.

    God Bless, Dave
     
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  18. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Revelation 21:8

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

    I would also like to emphasize the word part in this verse, by saying that those described in this verse will not spend eternity in hell, but they will spend some time in hell.

    Jesus Christ will redeem all those described in this verse, from hell, at the end of His 1000 year reign on earth.

    Those who will be consigned to spend eternity in the hell, will be Satan and his angels, and all those who have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost.
     
  19. Augustine

    Augustine Member

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    I will respond to FFH's post first, and reserve my reply for Truth101's for another post today (it will be a little bit longer as I will have to explain the interpretation of the parable).

    It says anyone whose name was not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. Later in Revelation, it reads:

    It appears that those whose names are not written in the book of life will not enter the new earth. You are right hell is not eternal, but there is no salvation for the souls that are in hell. They face final, and eternal, destruction in the lake of fire in the end times.

    In view of the above mentioned verses, I don't believe the bible says that the people in hell will be able to enter the kingdom of heaven as described in Revelation 21.

    Next post coming soon on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
     
  20. RHEMtron

    RHEMtron New Member

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    just wanted to add:

    excerpt from wikipedia

    In 2 Pet. 2:4, God chose the Greek word "Tartaros" (ταρταροω; English transliteration, "Tartarus") to identify the temporary abode of sinning angels. Tartarus holds spirit beings, not humans, and there is not a flame on the premises. The KJV and NIV translators (neither of whose versions have any influence in the expression of Eastern Orthodox doctrine) gave this specific Greek word the English equivalent, "hell".

    Newer translations of the Bible translate "Hades" or "Sheol" into the words "world of dead", "underworld", "grave", "crypt" or similar, but still translate the word "Gehenna" into the word "hell".

    The word "Hades" of the New Testament is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Sheol" of the Old Testament (Acts 2:27, Psalms 16:10). What happens in Hades, or rather Sheol, Ecclesiastes tells us: "for in the Sheol, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (Ecclesiastes 9,10) and "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. " (Ecclesiastes 9:5; see also Psalms 89:49; 139:8; Numbers 16:30). "The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the Sheol and raises up. " (1 Samuel 2:6). The souls of all human beings are going to Hades, whether they believe or not (John 5:28-29; Job 3:11-19, 14:13; Ez 32:18-32; Ps. 31:17; Dan. 12:2).

    Geenna (or Gehenna) is the name of an earthly place. It comes from Hebrew and means "Gorge of Hinnom (Ge-Hinnom)". This gorge can still be visited today near Jerusalem. In the time of the Old Testament it was a place where children were sacrificed to the Ammonite god Molech (2 Kings 23:10). That cultic practice was, according to the Old Testament, imitated by King Solomon in the 10th Century B.C.E. and under the leadership of king Manasseh in the 7th Century B.C.E. and in times of crisis until the time of exile of the Jews in Babylon (6th Century B.C.E.). The prophet Jeremiah, who condemned that cult strictly, called the valley the "gorge of killing" (Jeremiah 7:31-32; 19:5-9). Gehenna became later a central garbage dump, to stop the practice of child sacrifice. At the turn of the 1st Century C.E. the gorge was used also to burn the dead bodies of criminals after their execution. The image of burning dead bodies probably inspired Jewish, and later Christian theologians to translate that place into the word "hell".

    The sea of fire after the last tribunal in Revelation 20:14 isn't translated into the word "hell", but sometimes gets the connotations of "hell". In that sea of fire are thrown the beast, the devil, the false prophet, and Hell (Hades) itself, along with evil-doers, according to Revelation 20:12-15. "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for aeons of aeons." (Revelation 20:10) Many people mistakenly assume "Ages of Ages" to mean forever, but Aeon is definitely a fixed length.
     
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