Epicurean Paradox and my Faith

[stvdv]

Why would you want to get rid of the "evil" mind and not the thing that the "evil" mind perceives as evil?

Easier

 

[Koldo]

Easier

Is the outcome better though?

 

[thomas t]

More that neither God, nor parents, should treat that which they created as 'theirs'.

in my opinion, man is not in a position to set rules for God. Man is His creation, in my opinion.

Destroying life is a mark of power, not of right. [...]
'Entitled' by who or what?

God shouldn't be considered to have less rights than humans, when they create something such as a piece of arts. Before selling it. When an artist creates something, for instance a painting, noone cries foul, either.

Sure! I know.[...]
But he didn't create any of us (you and me) directly, our parents did.

In my view, you would not live if Adam wouldn't have lived before you. That one was created by God. You are just procreation.

 

[stvdv]

Is the outcome better though?

That's personal (Introvert, extrovert, materialistic or not) and depends on one's POV and goals.

 

[Koldo]

In my view, you would not live if Adam wouldn't have lived before you. That one was created by God. You are just procreation.

Therefore God didn't create me?
Once again, what do you even mean by 'create'?

 

[Koldo]

That's personal (Introvert, extrovert, materialistic or not) and depends on one's POV and goals.

What about you specifically?
Do you think that a world where people would cease to think of homicide as evil would be a better world than a world without homicides?

 

[blü 2]

It doesn't make sense for beings that don't have perfect knowledge, such as myself, to make assumption about what it means to have perfect knoweldge, I think.
God has perfect knowledge says Bible. Inferring that it means omniscience is guesswork as I see it.

But all theology is guesswork ─ God neither says nor does, and no revelation can demonstrate its superiority to any other, no?

 

[blü 2]

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of this Genesis story.

My interpretation:
My aim is not to "find problems", but to find "Wisdom". Not to prove it is wrong or has inconsistencies, but to see what insight I can gain. Hence I try to read between the lines, and to see the deeper meaning in stories like this. Knowing the stories are written down by humans, I would be surprised if there were no inconsistencies; those I just ignore. No need for me to prove there is 1 correct interpretation, as I see many layers in these stories

I see Eden as Heaven, meaning that human is in the state of "Peace of Mind" or "no mind". The moment the mind starts judging (in good/evil), Peace has gone. Later Jesus advised the same "thou shall not judge".

When you are in Heaven there is no need to eat from the tree of life (do spiritual exercises). But when you are "in the judgmental mind" then you need to do lots of spiritual exercises and lots of Self Effort to gain "Peace of Mind" again. And it works, when the mind goes silent, Peace dawns.

Thanks for that. My best guess at the meaning of the Garden story is as a parable about the infancy, adolescence (the fruit) and arrival at the adult state of mankind. To the modern mind the tale reflects very little credit on the Boss, but three thousand years ago the world looked very different.

 

[thomas t]

Therefore God didn't create me?
Once again, what do you even mean by 'create'?

In my opinion to create means to make. (I'm no philosopher, so my definitions don't aim high.)
You might ask: so my parents made me?
Your parents couldn't make you unless God created their first ancestor, Adam. According to the Bible, that's what he did.
Your parents didn't make your DNA, for instance.
I personally believe that God created you, too.

 

[thomas t]

and no revelation can demonstrate its superiority to any other, no?

Here we agree...

God neither says nor does

Here I disagree. God created everything, so that's action enough.

 

[blü 2]

Here I disagree. God created everything, so that's action enough.

That's not what the evidence says, though.

 

[Koldo]

In my opinion to create means to make. (I'm no philosopher, so my definitions don't aim high.)
You might ask: so my parents made me?
Your parents couldn't make you unless God created their first ancestor, Adam. According to the Bible, that's what he did.
Your parents didn't make your DNA, for instance.
I personally believe that God created you, too.

Okay, so how did God create me?
Can you describe what God did exactly?
I still don't understand this part.

 

[stvdv]

What about you specifically?
Do you think that a world where people would cease to think of homicide as evil would be a better world than a world without homicides?

The Scriptures declare: Sense impressions lead to thoughts, thoughts lead to words, and words lead to actions. Hence, watch your attachments
So, IF there is a world where people focus on pure sense impressions, their thoughts will purify, as will their words and their actions; so no homicides

IF there is a world where people cease to think evil THEN there would be a world without evil (like homicide)
IF there is a world without homicides THEN evil thoughts still might be there (so, evil can arise any moment)

To illustrate this clearly:
How healthy do you think it is if someone sticks to a celibate life (physical), but thinks about sex all the time?
@stvdvRF

 

[Quetzal]

There is no need to blame God for anything. It suffices to open a history book.

Right, but if God is all knowing, all powerful, and all good, why didn't he prevent them from happening? You can't have all three.

 

[Koldo]

The Scriptures declare: Sense impressions lead to thoughts, thoughts lead to words, and words lead to actions. Hence, watch your attachments
So, IF there is a world where people focus on pure sense impressions, their thoughts will purify, as will their words and their actions; so no homicides

IF there is a world where people cease to think evil THEN there would be a world without evil (like homicide)
IF there is a world without homicides THEN evil thoughts still might be there (so, evil can arise any moment)

To illustrate this clearly:
How healthy do you think it is if someone sticks to a celibate life (physical), but thinks about sex all the time?
@stvdvRF

Since you were talking about one way being easier than the other, I would like to comment that I find everyone out of their volition choosing not to have an "evil" mind much much harder than an omnipotent being eradicating evil all by himself.

Putting that aside for a moment, I am asking you to imagine a world that evil can not arise at any moment because God would never allow it happen. Would this world be more or less desirable to you than a world where people cease to think of homicide as evil? If anything, a world where people cease to think of homicide is the one world where evil may arise at any moment because people may change their minds at any moment.

 

[stvdv]

Why would you want to get rid of the "evil" mind and not the thing that the "evil" mind perceives as evil?

Easier

Since you were talking about one way being easier than the other

Yes, it's easier to change yourself than to change the world (all the things one perceives)

I would like to comment that I find everyone out of their volition choosing not to have an "evil" mind much much harder than an omnipotent being eradicating evil all by himself.

That would be a whole other Game though. So, I do agree it would be easier, but I usually find it more rewarding to do things myself.

Putting that aside for a moment, I am asking you to imagine a world that evil can not arise at any moment because God would never allow it happen.

You do not believe in God, so why would you ask me this? And why should I imagine such a world; I usually don't daydream?

Would this world be more or less desirable to you than a world where people cease to think of homicide as evil?

As I said above, that's a whole different Game to play. Less Freedom of choice. Maybe God takes sex out next. Would that be more desirable to you?

If anything, a world where people cease to think of homicide is the one world where evil may arise at any moment because people may change their minds at any moment.

My goal in life is to grow spiritually, which means "Be a Master Mind". It's a gradual process, falling down, but always standing up again, till "evil" vaporized

 

[Koldo]

Yes, it's easier to change yourself than to change the world (all the things one perceives)


That would be a whole other Game though. So, I do agree it would be easier, but I usually find it more rewarding to do things myself.

That is the main game though. The problem of evil is not about what we can make do but rather about what God should have done to be called omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.

You do not believe in God, so why would you ask me this? And why should I imagine such a world; I usually don't daydream?

Because if you agree that my proposed scenario is more desirable then it is easier to show the problem of evil remains.

As I said above, that's a whole different Game to play. Less Freedom of choice. Maybe God takes sex out next. Would that be more desirable to you?

Is sex by itself evil?

My goal in life is to grow spiritually, which means "Be a Master Mind". It's a gradual process, falling down, but always standing up again, till "evil" vaporized

I don't mind that some people might have such a goal. It only would bother me if you were to tell me everyone should be subjected to the same goal.

 

[InChrist]

I don't see any way that humans can have free will if God is omnipotent and omniscient ─ there's not the slightest possibility of doing anything that God didn't perfectly foresee before [he] made the universe.

And separately from that, there's no way that humans can make decisions independently of our brains' evolved decision-making mechanisms.

But let's imagine there's a way round that. There are a lot of things that are in our evolved physical and emotional form, and there are a lot of things that are left out. Then God could have given humans free will in a world that naturally provided them with sufficient AND built in contentment with sufficient, and built in benevolence AND left out rage and aggression.

No?

I don’t agree that God’s omnipotence or omniscience negates freewill. Because God “sees or knows” what any given person may do, doesn’t necessitate that God controlled the person’s actions or made them do it, does it? I don’t think it does anyway, therefore each person is free to choose good or evil, yet God sees.

On the other hand, in your scenario with God building people in certain ways and with limitations, humans would be mere robotic creations without real freewill. I believe freedom is too important to God and He desires that for His creatures. Therefore, the scriptures state we were made in God’s image.
God, according to the scriptures, is perfectly holy, good, and righteous. Humans certainly are not. Yet the scriptures indicate that the ultimate purpose of God for humanity is to refine those who desire to be made perfect, benevolent and loving in Christ and free from sinful and harmful behavior. Even that must be a free choice.

 

[blü 2]

I don’t agree that God’s omnipotence or omniscience negates freewill. Because God “sees or knows” what any given person may do, doesn’t necessitate that God controlled the person’s actions or made them do it, does it? I don’t think it does anyway, therefore each person is freely chooses good or evil and God sees.

God's omnipotence and omniscience mean that God perfectly foresaw everything that would ever happen in the universe throughout its existence back before [he] created it, and it's impossible for anyone to do anything varying even in the tiniest degree to what God perfectly foresaw.

Alternatively , God is not omnipotent / omniscient.

But that will leave freewill with the problem that we make decisions because we've evolved brains with decision-making procedures of various kinds, and there's no way we can make decisions independently of those brain functions.

 

[stvdv]

what God should have done to be called omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.

I never said that God is "omnibenevolent" nor do I believe this, nor does it makes sense to me

Because if you agree that my proposed scenario is more desirable then it is easier to show the problem of evil remains.

This is "Discussion Forum" not "Debate Forum". Meaning, IMO, share our view/opinion, without trying to convince the other that our's is better

Is sex by itself evil?

You still don't get it. My goal is not "to see evil". Hence, it should be clear that I don't answer this question

It only would bother me if you were to tell me everyone should be subjected to the same goal.

No need to bother. I don't believe that there is one same path and goal for all humans (see Note below)

Note: In Sanathana Dharma they use the term "Svadharma":

Svadharma:
Practising own dharma which includes individual`s unique duties, responsibilities and righteousness.
sva, 'own', + dharma, 'duty, right'. In Hinduism, one's own right, duty, or nature; one's own role in the social and cosmic order. Svadharma is relative to one's stage of life

 

[thomas t]

That's not what the evidence says, though.

in my opinion there is sound evidence for a loving Creator-God. Look at a beautiful counrtryside: in my opinion, this is evidence for a loving creator.

Can you describe what God did exactly?
I still don't understand this part.

thank you for asking. Perhaps you think I am a great philospher but I am not. All I can say is the following: according to the Bible, God created Adam, this one procreated together with Eve and you are somewhere in the line of his descendants. However, I can't go into great detail showing you how exactly this happened. In the Bible it only says "created from the dust!" and I don't understand much of science, either.