For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against therulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this darkworld and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlyrealms. -- Ephesians 6:12One of my favorites but I'm not 100% sure I understand what the underlying message. I've had many debates with friends, but I'd like this forum's expert opinions, please!
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Ephesians 6:12 I'd like your opinion.
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Adso
Member
I believe that Paul is telling the Ephesians that we should not consider our struggle against earthly might who may oppose the faithful, but that our true struggle is against the current ruler of Earth (Satan) and his demons.
Green Kepi
Active Member
The real battle is the forces behind the demons who Satan controls. The fallen, Devils' angels (workers)...their goal is to defeat the Church. 1 Peter 5:8: "...your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour". Lions attack sick, young, or straggling animals, they choose victims who are alone or not alert. Satan attacks we who do not have on the armor of God (Ephesians 6:13). We must study the Bible...why? It is the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God (v.17). It makes us "alert"...and the Holy Spirit protects us....
jtartar
Well-Known Member
stars,
If you consider also verse 11, along with verse 12, you see that it is talking about Satan the Devil and his angel followers. These demons can influence anyone who lets them, to do very wicked things. As the following scriptures tells us how to put on the complete suit of armor, verses 13-17.
The Bible is very clear about who the god of this system is, 2Cor 4:3,4, Rev 12:7-9, 1John 5:19. Jesus said several times that Satan was the ruler of the world, even back then, John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11. Notice how this is confirmed at Luke 4:5-8, Here Satan said that all the kingdoms of the earth were given to him. Jesus did not dispute that!!
In the dictionary there is a term called Pansatanism, which means that the spirit of this world is now the manifestation of the personality of Satan. Is that not right???
The first prophecy of the Bible tells about the seed of a woman, and the seed of Satan. Jesus was the Primary seed of God's Woman. Satan is the seed that would crush Jesus in the heel, and he has many followers who are also his seed. Jesus will finally crush Satan' head, Gen 20:10.
All the demons of Satan are the angels that did not keep the rightful place in heaven, and are now locked up in spirit prison. They are able to influence mankind, but are no longer able to enter The Heaven of God, Rev 12:7-9, 1
et 3:18-20, Jude 6, 2Pet 2:4.None of these demons are spirits of dead people, but they sometimes pretend to be, Ecc 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10, Eze 18:4,20.
Nadia Faiazova
Member
hi! With these words Paul showed not only that he was aware of the spiritual darkness enveloping the world but also that he knew the true sourcepowerful demonic forces described as world rulers.
Even today, demonic forces under the control of Satan the Devil are behind the scenes, exercising influence on human rulers and on mankind in general, prompting them to commit unspeakable acts of genocide, terrorism, and murder.
Even today, demonic forces under the control of Satan the Devil are behind the scenes, exercising influence on human rulers and on mankind in general, prompting them to commit unspeakable acts of genocide, terrorism, and murder.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
I am not an 'expert' of this forum, yet still, I do have an opinion.
In my understanding of the verse, Paul is saying that a Christian's fight is against the social injustices of an inequitable and symbiotic system of politics and religion.
　
We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the rules of men.
That have been devised by the privileged from birth and perpetuated by the political and religious authoriites and bring pain to all underneath them.
　
Read the account of Paul's journeys in Acts and you will see that he was continually confronted with the power of the political and religious elite of his time; never once by an immortal and god-like, evil incarnate fallen angel.
　
Although the Zoroastrian concepts of dualism have been widely accepted in mainstream Christianity the idea is not native to the NT but must be introduced to, or layered over, passages like this one from Ephesians.
And little wonder that this has been the case because it emasculated the force of Christianity to alter those very societal power structures of wealth and privilege, the judiciary and military, that Paul's spirit fought so hard and long against.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Personal experience shows that there is a battle in own mind to reach the fullness of Christ. There is a place of perfection. The veil was torn from corner to corner in the temple building. This represented the veil in the mind that removes man from God's sight.
God is a God close at hand and not far off. but God has removed man from his sight, that is seeing him.
Every person is subject to a certain power in their own person. The will is used to project and magnify aspects in the personality. We get a sense or a feeling of an observed person and what is being projected is being picked up. The person may be projecting what is expected to be seen because they are also seeing the observer.
It is only necessary to observe human behavior, seeing how each affects the other or how one can affect a group. People have some mind power to get what they want. This is the realm of Satan.
This realm of the mind has to be escaped from. There is a way of doing this. The New Testament is to be followed exactly.
Bring every thought into the captivity of Christ
dmgdnooc
Active Member
Please don't misunderstand me.
I do not mean that a Christian's battle is not first within his/her own self, against the impulses that are of the 'old man', that are of the 'thinking of the flesh'.
But that in this verse Paul is speaking of the spiritual wickedness that prevails in the high places, or in the ruling spheres, of the Earth.
　
He is speaking here, in my opinion, of the deceits that pervade the world, and assail Christians, by their appeal to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, and are delivered with the full authority of the rulers of the darkness of this world - the privileged/political/religious establishment.
　
By all means follow the NT exactly, my argument would be to not add to it ideas that are clearly from Zoroastrianism.
Simply put, ideas that do not originate in Scripture should not be forced into Scripture.
I do not mean that a Christian's battle is not first within his/her own self, against the impulses that are of the 'old man', that are of the 'thinking of the flesh'.
But that in this verse Paul is speaking of the spiritual wickedness that prevails in the high places, or in the ruling spheres, of the Earth.
　
He is speaking here, in my opinion, of the deceits that pervade the world, and assail Christians, by their appeal to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, and are delivered with the full authority of the rulers of the darkness of this world - the privileged/political/religious establishment.
　
By all means follow the NT exactly, my argument would be to not add to it ideas that are clearly from Zoroastrianism.
Simply put, ideas that do not originate in Scripture should not be forced into Scripture.
I haven't studied Zoroastrianism.
We must read different scriptures from the same book. When Jesus fasted he was tempted. I would call this more like prompted to do things that are potentially destructive.
There is a barrier in the mind of everyone that needs to be got passed.
The human will is captured by this power. Jesus has broken this power and is perfect.
This power that captures people shows up in all the actions of people. Psychology can show that 85% of all men have thought about murdering someone. Most don't but it could go either way. The will is actively subjected to promptings but most people keep this in check. Jesus has won the game.
This is all about what can be observed in real life and it isn't the other person with the problem. Everyone shares this active power and it is the power of Satan. It is all seated in the inner consciousness and manifests in personal power and how people treat each other in the emotions and physically.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
AllanV
If you are agreeing that there is no god-like supernatural fallen angel in perpetual battle against God then we are speaking at cross purposes.
Though you might reconsider what Paul means by the rulers of the world in high places (its not the inward places you are speaking of).
If you are agreeing that there is no god-like supernatural fallen angel in perpetual battle against God then we are speaking at cross purposes.
Though you might reconsider what Paul means by the rulers of the world in high places (its not the inward places you are speaking of).
Yes he would be talking about rulers but it does not matter what a person does the real battle is in the mind.
A god-like supernatural fallen angel would be as real to most as God is. How does such a being manifest now.
The personality is magnified and projected and each person sees the other with all their faults and reacts to a perception they build of the person. It occurs in the subconscious which is much faster than the thoughts being produced.
Will power is behind the mind and interacts with complimentary brain signals that are lodged in both producing chemicals and feelings. They are not always beneficial or have a good out come.
Therefore both people are subconsciously and chemically bonded. Mass hysteria, and peer pressure are two examples of the out come.
This is the realm of Satan. We see all the outcomes of this in all human interaction.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
Well, for a Bible believer, a god-like supernatural fallen angel should not be as real as God.
God is an idea that is in the Bible but the other must be introduced from an outside source.
The introduction of an idea into the Bible is an addition to the Scriptures.
So that is why it should matter.
　
Much of what you say I can agree with but I tend to think more in terms of (if I must make reference to scienctific concepts) the triune structure of the brain and psychoanalitical concepts of id, ego, super ego.
Chemicals and signals and the like often lead me round in circular arguments.
　
Paul speaks of things like the 'thinking of the flesh', the impulses of the 'old man' being 'carnally minded' etc which I can associate with concepts of (in terms of brain structure) the reptilian and paleomammalian complexes and/or (in psychoanalitical terms) ideas of the id and ego.
And he puts in opposition to those ideas things like 'spiritually minded', 'the new man', 'the mind of the spirit' which I can relate to ideas associated with the neomammalian complex and the super-ego.
But the fit is rarely exact.
　
Over all I think it best to try and understand the words and phrases in the context of the writer's understanding.
Getting inside (for the sake of the examples) Paul's head I find to be more edifying than either MacLean's or Freud's.
God is an idea that is in the Bible but the other must be introduced from an outside source.
The introduction of an idea into the Bible is an addition to the Scriptures.
So that is why it should matter.
　
Much of what you say I can agree with but I tend to think more in terms of (if I must make reference to scienctific concepts) the triune structure of the brain and psychoanalitical concepts of id, ego, super ego.
Chemicals and signals and the like often lead me round in circular arguments.
　
Paul speaks of things like the 'thinking of the flesh', the impulses of the 'old man' being 'carnally minded' etc which I can associate with concepts of (in terms of brain structure) the reptilian and paleomammalian complexes and/or (in psychoanalitical terms) ideas of the id and ego.
And he puts in opposition to those ideas things like 'spiritually minded', 'the new man', 'the mind of the spirit' which I can relate to ideas associated with the neomammalian complex and the super-ego.
But the fit is rarely exact.
　
Over all I think it best to try and understand the words and phrases in the context of the writer's understanding.
Getting inside (for the sake of the examples) Paul's head I find to be more edifying than either MacLean's or Freud's.
What I was meaning is that for most people God cannot be comprehended any more than an idea of Satan. They are looking in the wrong place for both.
Science is offering some insights as to the complexity of the brain.
Scriptures didn't use the same language or modern words. But observation of human behavior at the micro level, realizing all the sensations and chemical going on etc would say that everyone is subject to something they could not escape from. This is the kingdom of Satan.
Going to Church is not going to help because it is a culture and most people learn how to act and fit in rather than know scriptures. The similar brain activity is going on because people are bonding in the human way. The subconscious is being penetrated by the imperfect people that are giving the sermons. There are many different Church types and beliefs. Which one is correct. The Spirit is being generated from the group.
I have been into many Christian Churches and they have limited understanding. They have placed themselves in a safe zone of comfort.
It is better not to draw attention and focus on Satan but some Churches are misguided to the truth that Satan is in the power and strength of their own personalities. This strength has to be given up and this can only be done completely in the nature and mind of Jesus Christ. From the kingdom of Satan to the kingdom of God.
The nature and mind of Jesus is powerful in the ability to be so gentle and non imposing, that it will not respond and bond in mutual emotional responses which are chemical . This renewed mind cannot be found by the natural mind because the natural is too energetic and always looking for a human response.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
OK.
It seems to me, and I think you will find it so by checking the usage, that the scriptural ideas of devil and satan are not always interchangeable.
Satan is exclusively associated with an opposition that is entirely religious in nature.
A Satan would seek to undermine the faith, or religious observance, of a believer.
While devil (diablos) is used to describe those impulses of the flesh that you appear to be speaking of.
A Devil would act on the impulses of his flesh to commit sin.
　
So, if you can see it, a Satan works to subvert others while a Devil is the subverted self.
A Satan will always then also be a Devil but a Devil will only become a Satan when his actions are aimed at subversion, or perversion, of another's religious principles.
　
In this regard consider the Temptation in Luke 4.
The 1st temptation appears reasonable enough, Jesus' sonship had to be proved eventually and Jesus was hungry. The Tempter is the Devil.
The 2nd temptation starts out reasonably enough, there's nothing wrong with viewing the kingdoms, nor with the idea of Jesus ruling them.
But then comes the clincher and the Devil says 'worship me'; at that point the character of the temptation changes and along with it the character of the Tempter is revealed.
From this point on the Tempter is known to be a Satan, he had sought to subvert Jesus' religious worship.
The Devil had overstepped the mark of appealing to the impulses of Jesus's flesh and had intruded himself upon Jesus' relationship with God revealing himself to be a Satan.
　
So what you are calling the 'kingdom of Satan' referring to a contained and internal system of fleshly impulses and proclivities, might more correctly, in Scriptural usage, be described as the kingdom of the 'Devil'.
At least up until the point where those impulses were directed out towards turning another from their faith.
I think that if you were to do word studies on 'devil' and 'satan' you would find that I am on the right track in regards their usage.
　
I like what you are saying about the 'observation of human behaviour at the micro level' and will mention that one of the Bible's principal strengths, imo, is its close observation of and sympathy for the human condition.
That modern sciences like neurology and psychology can agree with the Bible's ages old observations is a comfort to me.
The things you mention about the chemical nature of the brain and its functioning seem to fit also within the Bible's framework.
　
I should also mention that I have met many Christians, some here on this forum, who are only too well aware of the power for corruption that works, almost unseen, in their own flesh.
They just might be inclined to use different terminology to you, but the outcome of their words is in line with what you say.
It seems to me, and I think you will find it so by checking the usage, that the scriptural ideas of devil and satan are not always interchangeable.
Satan is exclusively associated with an opposition that is entirely religious in nature.
A Satan would seek to undermine the faith, or religious observance, of a believer.
While devil (diablos) is used to describe those impulses of the flesh that you appear to be speaking of.
A Devil would act on the impulses of his flesh to commit sin.
　
So, if you can see it, a Satan works to subvert others while a Devil is the subverted self.
A Satan will always then also be a Devil but a Devil will only become a Satan when his actions are aimed at subversion, or perversion, of another's religious principles.
　
In this regard consider the Temptation in Luke 4.
The 1st temptation appears reasonable enough, Jesus' sonship had to be proved eventually and Jesus was hungry. The Tempter is the Devil.
The 2nd temptation starts out reasonably enough, there's nothing wrong with viewing the kingdoms, nor with the idea of Jesus ruling them.
But then comes the clincher and the Devil says 'worship me'; at that point the character of the temptation changes and along with it the character of the Tempter is revealed.
From this point on the Tempter is known to be a Satan, he had sought to subvert Jesus' religious worship.
The Devil had overstepped the mark of appealing to the impulses of Jesus's flesh and had intruded himself upon Jesus' relationship with God revealing himself to be a Satan.
　
So what you are calling the 'kingdom of Satan' referring to a contained and internal system of fleshly impulses and proclivities, might more correctly, in Scriptural usage, be described as the kingdom of the 'Devil'.
At least up until the point where those impulses were directed out towards turning another from their faith.
I think that if you were to do word studies on 'devil' and 'satan' you would find that I am on the right track in regards their usage.
　
I like what you are saying about the 'observation of human behaviour at the micro level' and will mention that one of the Bible's principal strengths, imo, is its close observation of and sympathy for the human condition.
That modern sciences like neurology and psychology can agree with the Bible's ages old observations is a comfort to me.
The things you mention about the chemical nature of the brain and its functioning seem to fit also within the Bible's framework.
　
I should also mention that I have met many Christians, some here on this forum, who are only too well aware of the power for corruption that works, almost unseen, in their own flesh.
They just might be inclined to use different terminology to you, but the outcome of their words is in line with what you say.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I agree with Adso
the struggle Paul mentions, are with the spirits who rule the world.
the 'spiritual forces in the heavenly realms' mean Satan and his demons. The message is that these unseen spirit forces are in control of our world. They influence what goes on down here, they influence our governments and the media and the struggle we have is that they will do what they can to ensure that we break Gods laws. They have designed this world in such a way that we will be corrupted and fall into sin and temptation...when we do, we remain alienated from God and that is their goal.
I was in a Church years ago and the pastor was giving the people there a really hard time.
Some wanted him gone and others thought he wasn't so bad. There were emotional breakdowns and strange behaviors. I was reading with my head down during one of his rants because his energy needed to be kept out. In the one moment I looked up he appeared to me to have horns and exaggerated features.
I related this to a non Christian friend and he remembered something that he had read in a book. It said that all humans have little nodes, one each side of the forward part of the skull. I have them but they are very subtle.
Could it be that there is a power that comes out of the mind and the body is a beacon, a transmitter. In the extreme of self will, pride, arrogance a person can be completely taken over.
Most of what I relate is from personal experience, I have been shown, it is just a matter of believing it. When I read scripture the understanding comes as to the meaning.
Christians do not seem to understand that what they are reading is not just in other people but they are actively using the same powers as every one else. They have not escaped from anything. They are essentially dangerous.
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I agree. And it is easier to be part of the problem than to escape that realm of the mind.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
im not sure what you mean by 'realm of the mind' ???
I dont think satan and the demons exist only in our minds, if thats what you mean, i believe they are real entities.
I was in a Church years ago and the pastor was giving the people there a really hard time.
Some wanted him gone and others thought he wasn't so bad. There were emotional breakdowns and strange behaviors. I was reading with my head down during one of his rants because his energy needed to be kept out. In the one moment I looked up he appeared to me to have horns and exaggerated features.
It is a matter of being able to see the demons. A demon translated is a fixture of the mind, a mind set. If a person can be close to God then a sensitivity can expose all.
The pastor who had the horns gave off some bad energy and this was noticed in my heart area. But he still captured about a third of the Church group. About 100 people. These people didn't notice what he was like. The Church broke up eventually. There were about 400 people and 100 went with him. His pastor ship had people giving false prophecies and revelation.
The problem is to be sensitive in the heart but this can leave a person emotionally compromised. Therefore the worship in a Church is safe and static with no true perfection or Holiness. Hard hearted, imperfect individuals, get into the leadership by their intellect and preach from that hardness. Everybody who listens has to reinforce a counter measure against the persons energy to stop it being taken on board. They may be good people but their goal isn't the correct one.
I am not sure if you know what I mean but then do you ever meet people who are mentally exhausting. Their minds seem that busy that it seems hard to keep up with them. It is necessary to build up some resistance. Some people are much quieter but this can be deceptive and they may catch you unawares and then you have played into their hands. Teenagers are good at getting what they want and they can be masters at it. Church leaders have good skills as well, but if their goal isn't holiness, perfection then what is it.
The nicest people may be planting ideas that are false and this is where the Christian Church is. They are denying or resisting God's power even though they are saying they believe. But what do they believe, the power of their own intellect to understand scriptures and not revelation direct.
Own strength is Satan at work in the personality. Satan magnifies the Self giving it power to get what it wants. The Self wants to be comfortable and to hold egotistical notions and beliefs of its own as opposed to another persons. Every bodies life is different and also life experience. This produces opinions and exulting own self, intellect, as superior. When working with people quite often there will be some one who says how great they are in various ways to gain some advantage, we tend to call this politics. One way to gain an advantage is to put people down and accuse them of something. If that sounds like Satan it must be Satan. But , all this exalts the self against the knowledge of God which is powerful revelation direct from God.
The knowledge of good and evil means that people need an experiential life of knowing evil to Knowing good. This is set in the consciousness of man. One aspect is in risk taking.
God's request is to know Him. This can only be done in another consciousness. This other consciousness is the mind and nature that is perfect and this is Jesus Christ.
The religious Church goer is as much in the wrong realm of the mind as anyone because it is intellectual only and their own hardness remains.
It takes a broken and contrite heart and a broken spirit.
The Lord's nature and mind is so gentle that it cannot be comprehended in the natural mind. There must be a transformation and renewing of the mind to receive it.