El, elohim, yahweh

[bribrius]

How is the translation on these from old testament to new testament?

is it possible that EL is a different God entirely being described in the old testament than yahweh in the new testament?

i was also wondering of the canaanite God.

who is their God is was there a chance it was El and the same God of the old testament?

i am having trouble with the different references of God in the bible, basically. And am starting to wonder if they are all the same God being described.

Or yeshua.

Im "God" confused....

 

[fallingblood]

How is the translation on these from old testament to new testament?

is it possible that EL is a different God entirely being described in the old testament than yahweh in the new testament?

i was also wondering of the canaanite God.

who is their God is was there a chance it was El and the same God of the old testament?

i am having trouble with the different references of God in the bible, basically. And am starting to wonder if they are all the same God being described.

Or yeshua.

Im "God" confused....

El, elohim, and even god, are all generic terms. At the same time, just like God (a proper noun), can refer to one specific god, El could also refer to a specific god. El can refer to the supreme god. So, in Hebrew, when we see the term El, and it is either with a definite article, or when used in the singular, refers to the same deity that is referenced as Yahweh, or God. Elohim is the same here.

Now, really, it all is based on context. Elohim, and El, even though they can refer to God, they can also refer to other gods. And this is true in other semitic languages as well (from that time of course). We can look through a number of different religions, from that area that used a semitic language, that used the words El or Elohim in order to reference a particular god, or various gods. Really, it comes down to context.

The Canaanite high god was El. Basically, it was like calling a god, God. El was the high god, but el could also refer to a different god. Again, it is based on context.

Some believe that El (the high god) influenced the ideas of the early Hebrews. Some would go as far as claiming that Abraham followed El (which is somewhat funny, as many of those same people would then argue that Abraham didn't exist). The argument is primarily based on the idea that the Canaanite high god was named El. However, El can be used to refer to any supreme god. In fact, even after Judaism went from polytheism, to monolatry, and eventually pure monotheism, God was still called El. Which makes sense. It is much like us calling the Abrahamic god, God.

Now, it is probable that Canaanite religion, and that includes their pantheon of gods, influenced early Hebrew thought. I wouldn't say that they took the Canaanite high god El, and transformed it into the Hebrew God. But they most likely were influenced by such. And it is probable that some early Hebrews also worshipped the Canaanite high god El.

Yahweh, or the Hebrew God, seems to have probably been a local deity though. Many deities were seen to be effective in only a certain area. So say you lived in one area, you would pray and worship that god. Then if you traveled somewhere else, you would probably then pray to that god. We actually get hints of this in the OT. Yahweh (the Hebrew God), eventually ended up being seen as a universal god.

I hope that was clear. If not, I can clear up anything you want.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How is the translation on these from old testament to new testament?

is it possible that EL is a different God entirely being described in the old testament than yahweh in the new testament?

i was also wondering of the canaanite God.

who is their God is was there a chance it was El and the same God of the old testament?

i am having trouble with the different references of God in the bible, basically. And am starting to wonder if they are all the same God being described.

Have you ever considered reading any of the scholarship on the topic?

Or yeshua.

Check out the term 'eisegesis'.

Im "God" confused....

So, do something about it.

 

[Pegg]

How is the translation on these from old testament to new testament?

is it possible that EL is a different God entirely being described in the old testament than yahweh in the new testament?

i was also wondering of the canaanite God.

who is their God is was there a chance it was El and the same God of the old testament?

i am having trouble with the different references of God in the bible, basically. And am starting to wonder if they are all the same God being described.

Or yeshua.

Im "God" confused....

im going to contradict fallingblood and say that the hebrew word 'El' or 'Elohim' is a common noun...not a proper noun. Its like the the word Doctor/President/Principle being used as a title....If i dont add a specific name to Doctor/President/Principle, you would not know who I was talking about. Only if i give you a proper noun (Name) can you identify the one im speaking about. President Obama, Principle Skinner, Doctor Phil.


'El is the hebrew word meaning god. It means “Mighty One; Strong One.” And it is not only used in reference to supernatural beings, but to false gods and and to men.

When ʼEl appears in the bible with the definite article, such as ha·ʼEl′, it means “the God” and is a reference to Yahweh. ʼEl Shad·dai′ is also a reference to Yahweh as only he is called by this title...it means God Almighty.

'Elohim is the 'plural' of 'El and is used to signify majesty, dignity, or excellence when reference is made to Yahweh. But it is also used at Psalm 8:5 in reference to the angels of God who number into the millions. So the Elohim is also used to express the plurality of other beings.

Jesus is called ʼEl Gib·bohr′ in the hebrew scriptures. It means Mighty God

 

[shawn001]

How is the translation on these from old testament to new testament?

is it possible that EL is a different God entirely being described in the old testament than yahweh in the new testament?

i was also wondering of the canaanite God.

who is their God is was there a chance it was El and the same God of the old testament?

i am having trouble with the different references of God in the bible, basically. And am starting to wonder if they are all the same God being described.

Or yeshua.

Im "God" confused....

You might want to read this

" Michael Coogan, Professor of Religious Studies at Stonehill College and Director of Publications for the Harvard Semitic Museum, offers insights into how scholars today understand how the first five books of the Bible were written."


NOVA | Writers of the Bible

 

[JacobEzra.]

Tittles are one thing. Actual Name is another

 

[outhouse]

How is the translation on these from old testament to new testament?

well, completely different concepts.

the NT deals with the deification of a mortal man, and then the later addition of a ghost as a deity and adding all that to Yahweh and all the while claiming monotheism [facepalm]

the OT deals with multiple Canaanite deities EL and Yahweh comipled as one roughly around 622BC

is it possible that EL is a different God entirely being described in the old testament than yahweh in the new testament?

its a fact El is a different deity

El was redacted/edited at a much later date when hebrews switched from polytheism and went to strictly monotheism.

i was also wondering of the canaanite God.

who is their God is was there a chance it was El and the same God of the old testament?

Canaanites had many deities, El and Yawheh were two of the many


El has Mesopotamian roots and originated there

Yahweh goes back to the Shasu tribe. Ancient hebrews never had a god or deity of their own.

i am having trouble with the different references of God in the bible, basically. And am starting to wonder if they are all the same God being described.

You need to rememeber that ancient hebrews and Isarel was a melting pot for many semitic people all of which brought their own deities. You had Canaanite influeneces and mesopotamian influeneces as well as a minor sect at best from Egypt.

They started out polytheistic worshipping many gods. El was the father and Yahweh was the warrior god, Els son. These were the primary deities a long with Asherah and Baal.



Here is how the god concept played out


El and Yawheh were worshipped until 622 BC among other deities [polytheism]

Yahweh was worshipped from 622 BC until present [monotheism]

a minor sect starts worshipping jesus but his divinity isnt defined until 325 AD as being part of Yahweh [back to polytheism]

400 AD a ghost is added and the trinity formed [polytheism redifined as monotheism] [facepalm]

later allah's name is given to Yahweh

later John Smith develops his own religion



and on and on and on

 

[outhouse]

El, elohim, and even god, are all generic terms. At the same time, just like God (a proper noun), can refer to one specific god, El could also refer to a specific god. El can refer to the supreme god. So, in Hebrew, when we see the term El, and it is either with a definite article, or when used in the singular, refers to the same deity that is referenced as Yahweh, or God. Elohim is the same here.

Now, really, it all is based on context. Elohim, and El, even though they can refer to God, they can also refer to other gods. And this is true in other semitic languages as well (from that time of course). We can look through a number of different religions, from that area that used a semitic language, that used the words El or Elohim in order to reference a particular god, or various gods. Really, it comes down to context.

The Canaanite high god was El. Basically, it was like calling a god, God. El was the high god, but el could also refer to a different god. Again, it is based on context.

Some believe that El (the high god) influenced the ideas of the early Hebrews. Some would go as far as claiming that Abraham followed El (which is somewhat funny, as many of those same people would then argue that Abraham didn't exist). The argument is primarily based on the idea that the Canaanite high god was named El. However, El can be used to refer to any supreme god. In fact, even after Judaism went from polytheism, to monolatry, and eventually pure monotheism, God was still called El. Which makes sense. It is much like us calling the Abrahamic god, God.

Now, it is probable that Canaanite religion, and that includes their pantheon of gods, influenced early Hebrew thought. I wouldn't say that they took the Canaanite high god El, and transformed it into the Hebrew God. But they most likely were influenced by such. And it is probable that some early Hebrews also worshipped the Canaanite high god El.

Yahweh, or the Hebrew God, seems to have probably been a local deity though. Many deities were seen to be effective in only a certain area. So say you lived in one area, you would pray and worship that god. Then if you traveled somewhere else, you would probably then pray to that god. We actually get hints of this in the OT. Yahweh (the Hebrew God), eventually ended up being seen as a universal god.

I hope that was clear. If not, I can clear up anything you want.

clear??? sounds like jibber jabber

im really confused after reading that

Now, it is probable that Canaanite religion, and that includes their pantheon of gods, influenced early Hebrew thought. I wouldn't say that they took the Canaanite high god El, and transformed it into the Hebrew God. But they most likely were influenced by such.

well this is just false as it gets

Canaanites became israelis after the canaanite government collapsed. Canaanites kept the same gods they always used.

what ended up happening is many other semitic people migrated to the Canaanite culture now renamed Israel bringing their own deities to add to this deity melting pot.


OP here a link that will help you understand the culture and the gods so your not confused by post like above

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like many Ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[75] The major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period.[76] By the early monarchy El and Yahweh had become unified and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[76] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[77] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan, and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage.[78] With the emergence of monarchy at the beginning of Iron Age II the king promoted his own family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered, as it was also for other societies in the Ancient Near East.[79]


this vid will help set you straight

[youtube]kZY2eeozdo8[/youtube]
3.3.3 Atheism - A History of God (The Polytheistic Origins of Christianity and Judaism) - YouTube=

 

[outhouse]

You might want to read this

" Michael Coogan, Professor of Religious Studies at Stonehill College and Director of Publications for the Harvard Semitic Museum, offers insights into how scholars today understand how the first five books of the Bible were written."


NOVA | Writers of the Bible

the article is vague but does cover some good points, but really tries to cover to much to quickly to get a real grasp.


this will help with learning E and J at a scholarl level of study


The Legends of Genesis: V. Jahvist, Elohist, Jehovist, the Later Collections

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

'Elohim is the 'plural' of 'El and is used to signify majesty, dignity, or excellence when reference is made to Yahweh.

Probably not.

Jesus is called ʼEl Gib·bohr′ in the hebrew scriptures. It means Mighty God

Which Hebrew scriptures?

 

[JacobEzra.]

I thought elohim was a form of elohenu

 

[outhouse]

I thought elohim was a form of elohenu

it is sort of with different context


this explains it better then I do.


ELOHIM = The Plural God A study on the Old Testament foundation for the Trinity. Believersweb.org

 

[bribrius]

Have you ever considered reading any of the scholarship on the topic?

Check out the term 'eisegesis'.

So, do something about it.

i have. And there seeems to be some confusion on it. Wasnt baal a son of El too? And yeshua was from what i read, a plains God or something. One of many that adapted to become more friendly to the general populace. and watched a documentary. In the documentary they unearthed a grave and found something inscribed saying yeshua and ashera were like lovers.

and i became more confused.

see the responses here
?
i read a web page, i dont know how to take what im reading. There is little for contrary opinion or insight. Seems i put up something here and i get not only a amazing amount of insight but from different people, all very knowledgable and helpful, and as they may disagree it shows weaknesses in certain peoples opinion on it. Which helps me because im not knowledgable enough to know who might be telling the truh, or who might be pulling my leg. who might really know what they are doing, or who might be pretending to know what they are doing. I dont know enough either way to tell the difference
If i look at a certian reference, document, or video, i dont know what agenda that person has. It is hard to tell how i should take the information.
Much easier sorting it out, amongst others with knowledge, and along with that reading or watching something and hoping you can take it for face value or some level of truth. If not at least with a little knowledge in hand i can sort out what is complete misdirection and incorrect from the mess (hopefully)
.

Other thing is this place has the neat little informative tags by all your screen names.
so if it says judaism, or atheist or whatever. i try consider what you are saying and where it is coming from as far as ones faith. So you tell me up front what your agenda could be by listing your faith. I dont have to be skeptical about it.

i do research on my own, but this place seems to be having its benefits as well. And perhaps questions i have, things i dont understand, or even if i am double checking myself posting for opinions will help others in their search and they can learn as well by all the responses and discussion.


This is another one of those things i have been recently interested in, fascinated by. Thankyou all for your contributions. i will sort through them later. Feel free to carry on at will. I do appreciate it and follow up on these when i have time. enjoy yourselves it seems i opened a interesting topic for many with this thread...

 

[JacobEzra.]

I was just thinkin from what I've noticed while reading hebrew text. Though I am not greatly knowledgable in hebrew.

I wouldn't trust the insight of a link titled tye foundation of the trinity. Like, I question, "Does the Hebrew really say "our Gods" (plural)?* It does.* The Hebrew plural for "our Gods" is ELOHENU, from ELOHIM which is the plural of ELOAH."

If the Shma was to indicate plurity, then elohim would be best fit since it the suffix -im which is plural. Ex. Shir Hashirim =song of songs. Or Yehudi, Yehudim.

 

[JacobEzra.]

"yeshua and ashera documentary. I yeshua and ashera were like lovers."

Yes. Cause "yeshua" was suchh an unpopular name that there was only one in all existence!

 

[bribrius]

"yeshua and ashera documentary. I yeshua and ashera were like lovers."

Yes. Cause "yeshua" was suchh an unpopular name that there was only one in all existence!

my mistake. meant yahweh

asherah and yahweh

apologize. sorry. Link from wiki below. The doc i saw had one of the items in it inscripted with yahweh and asherah.

"More rarely, inscriptions linking Yahweh and Asherah have been discovered: an 8th century BCE ostracon inscribed "Berakhti etkhem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" (Hebrew: בירכתי אתכם ליהוה שומרון ולאשרתו&#8206 was discovered by Israeli archeologists at Kuntillet Ajrud (Hebrew "Horvat Teman") in the course of excavations in the Sinai desert in 1975. This translates as: "I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah" (or perhaps "... by YHVH our guardian and His Asherah", if "Shomron" is to be read "shomrenu"). Another inscription, from Khirbet el-Kom near Hebron, reads: "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!".[8] Tilde Binger notes in her study, Asherah: Goddesses in Ugarit, Israel and the Old Testament (1997, p. 141), that there is warrant for seeing an Asherah as, variously, "a wooden-aniconic-stela or column of some kind; a living tree; or a more regular statue." A rudely carved wooden statue planted on the ground of the house was Asherah's symbol, and sometimes a clay statue without legs. Her cult images— "idols"— were found also in forests, carved on living trees, or in the form of poles beside altars that were placed at the side of some roads. Asherah poles are mentioned in the books of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, the Books of Kings, the second Book of Chronicles, and the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah. The term often appears as merely אשרה, Asherah; this is translated as "groves" in the King James Version and "poles" in the New Revised Standard Version, although there is disagreement about the translation of the ancient Hebrew as "poles.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

 

[bribrius]

well, completely different concepts.

the NT deals with the deification of a mortal man, and then the later addition of a ghost as a deity and adding all that to Yahweh and all the while claiming monotheism [facepalm]

the OT deals with multiple Canaanite deities EL and Yahweh comipled as one roughly around 622BC




its a fact El is a different deity

El was redacted/edited at a much later date when hebrews switched from polytheism and went to strictly monotheism.




Canaanites had many deities, El and Yawheh were two of the many


El has Mesopotamian roots and originated there

Yahweh goes back to the Shasu tribe. Ancient hebrews never had a god or deity of their own.






You need to rememeber that ancient hebrews and Isarel was a melting pot for many semitic people all of which brought their own deities. You had Canaanite influeneces and mesopotamian influeneces as well as a minor sect at best from Egypt.

They started out polytheistic worshipping many gods. El was the father and Yahweh was the warrior god, Els son. These were the primary deities a long with Asherah and Baal.



Here is how the god concept played out


El and Yawheh were worshipped until 622 BC among other deities [polytheism]

Yahweh was worshipped from 622 BC until present [monotheism]

a minor sect starts worshipping jesus but his divinity isnt defined until 325 AD as being part of Yahweh [back to polytheism]

400 AD a ghost is added and the trinity formed [polytheism redifined as monotheism] [facepalm]

later allah's name is given to Yahweh

later John Smith develops his own religion



and on and on and on

one of the things i couldnt quite grasp, is if it was all the same God depicted. There seems to be various camps of debate on this. I read a few things. One camp believes they are totally different Gods........from early old testament, to new testament (maybe even three distinct Gods).

another believes it is all in reference to the same God.

There are people like pegg (God bless you pegg) and others that are much better than me at making sense of the translations.

But for some reason, there are still these different camps, opposing views.
i can pull up something saying they are different Gods entirely, while i could pull up something else more in line with what Pegg or others wrote saying it it is all in the translation and they are all the same God.
Early history DOES have many Gods in the region. and there is a El.
But is the EL yahweh? Or a different EL? And what is up with the ashera connection and baal? Wasnt yahweh originally a sub God or child God of EL?
So is EL and yahweh the same God through the entire bible???
i dunno :thud:

 

[fallingblood]

Or yeshua.

I completely missed this before. Yeshua is not a god. Yeshua (I'm going to use Jesus from here on out, simply because I like it better), is fully human. That is something that is pretty much all agreed upon.

Now, Jesus is also saw to be divine. The idea is that he is fully divine, and fully human. However, he is not a separate god.

Later on, the idea that Jesus was God did arise. Again though, this is not a separate god. Jesus, according to some, is God. This can take the form of the idea that Jesus is God incarnate. More often, we get the idea of the Trinity.

What is important with the Trinity idea is that it is only one God. It consists of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We will deal with the Holy Spirit first. Many call it a ghost; however, that simply is a misunderstanding. Usually when Christians call it a ghost, they are not talking about a ghost in the sense that many people think of it now (the manifestation of a dead person). Here we are talking about the Spirt of Holiness, or the Spirit of God (we see the idea in the OT as well). One could even call it the breath of God (spirit and breath come from the same word). It is a part of God.

Jesus gets a little more complicated. Jesus is supposed to be God incarnate, or God in human form. So Jesus is God. Jesus is a form of God. We really get more into the idea of monism, where there is one god, but with multiple manifestations.

 

[bribrius]

I completely missed this before. Yeshua is not a god. Yeshua (I'm going to use Jesus from here on out, simply because I like it better), is fully human. That is something that is pretty much all agreed upon.

Now, Jesus is also saw to be divine. The idea is that he is fully divine, and fully human. However, he is not a separate god.

Later on, the idea that Jesus was God did arise. Again though, this is not a separate god. Jesus, according to some, is God. This can take the form of the idea that Jesus is God incarnate. More often, we get the idea of the Trinity.

What is important with the Trinity idea is that it is only one God. It consists of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We will deal with the Holy Spirit first. Many call it a ghost; however, that simply is a misunderstanding. Usually when Christians call it a ghost, they are not talking about a ghost in the sense that many people think of it now (the manifestation of a dead person). Here we are talking about the Spirt of Holiness, or the Spirit of God (we see the idea in the OT as well). One could even call it the breath of God (spirit and breath come from the same word). It is a part of God.

Jesus gets a little more complicated. Jesus is supposed to be God incarnate, or God in human form. So Jesus is God. Jesus is a form of God. We really get more into the idea of monism, where there is one god, but with multiple manifestations.

what is your opinion on the council of Gods???

psalm 82

"God [elohim] stands in the divine council [literally, council of El];
among the gods [elohim] he pronounces judgement.
How long will you [plural] judge unjustly,
showing favour to the wicked? Selah.
Judge the wretched and the orphan,
vindicate the lowly and the poor,
rescue the wretched and the needy;
save them from the hand of the wicked.
They neither know nor understand,
they go about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth totter.
I said, "you [plural] gods [elohim],
sons of the Most High, all of you [plural];
but you [plural] shall die as men do,
fall like any prince.
Arise [the command is singular], O God [elohim],
judge [the command is singular] the earth,
for you [singular] shall inherit all the nations. "


think there is another reference to the council of gods in genesis or somewhere too, let me think on it...

 

[fallingblood]

one of the things i couldnt quite grasp, is if it was all the same God depicted. There seems to be various camps of debate on this. I read a few things. One camp believes they are totally different Gods........from early old testament, to new testament (maybe even three distinct Gods).

another believes it is all in reference to the same God.

There are people like pegg (God bless you pegg) and others that are much better than me at making sense of the translations.

But for some reason, there are still these different camps, opposing views.
i can pull up something saying they are different Gods entirely, while i could pull up something else more in line with what Pegg or others wrote saying it it is all in the translation and they are all the same God.
Early history DOES have many Gods in the region. and there is a El.
But is the EL yahweh? Or a different EL? And what is up with the ashera connection and baal? Wasnt yahweh originally a sub God or child God of EL?
So is EL and yahweh the same God through the entire bible???
i dunno :thud:

There is a very good reason for there being different camps. It is a very difficult subject. We don't have a nice clear cut picture. As more archeology is done in the area, the more information we get. However, we aren't really getting exact writings here. We don't have a nice time line on the ideologies of God.

Most likely, we probably have a situation that is similar to any number of different situations like this. We have one ideology that assimilates others. So, we have one god, who as times goes by, takes on characteristics of other gods as well.

In the Bible though, El and Yahweh refer to the same god. El simply is a generic term. It was one of the names, or more like titles used to refer to God. Some writers simply liked that one better then using Yahweh or some other name. But it refers to the same god.

There is also a different El (actually a number of different el). Again, el is a generic term, like god is a generic term. It can also refer to the supreme god, such as the Canaanite high god El.