Dog Punishment Training

[The Hammer]

Many people use punishment aka negative reinforcement, to train theirs or someone else's dog. The majority of this outlook is based on antiquated and anecdotal evidence, not based in canine psychology. One HUGE proponent of this is Cesar Milan, and he is wrong.

Millan is proof that Positive Reinforcement Works

Positive reinforcement, results in a better trained, better behaved and less reactive dogs. Shock collars are punishment, whether you or your trainer says otherwise.

Reasons to Avoid Shock Collars and Punishment | Wags & Wiggles

Most people do not recognize their dogs stressed behavior, until the reach the orange level (stiffening). Or through the use of shock collars and punishment training, they have trained out the warning signs that let you know a dog is stressed and going to react.

 

[sun rise]

We watched a boatload of Cesar Milan shows and never once did I see punishment used. All the shows emphasized pack leadership which is something else.

And I found it works by applying his leadership principles. One day our last dog was obsessing about a possum on the fence. I calmly walked over the fence where the critter was and stood there "claiming" the critter. The dog got hyper-excited for a few seconds, then visibly sighed and trotted into the house peacefully with me. No punishment needed.

 

[The Hammer]

We watched a boatload of Cesar Milan shows and never once did I see punishment used. All the shows emphasized pack leadership which is something else.

And I found it works by applying his leadership principles. One day our last dog was obsessing about a possum on the fence. I calmly walked over the fence where the critter was and stood there "claiming" the critter. The dog got hyper-excited for a few seconds, then visibly sighed and trotted into the house peacefully with me. No punishment needed.

I won't go near any trainer that still relies on "Alpha Theory".

"In each and every episode of the Dog Whisperer, Millan placed an emphasis on hierarchical pack dynamic, pack leadership, and canine dominance. His whole approach was anchored to the idea that dogs have some innate need to fulfill a natural, primal role in life related to the way wolves behave in the wilderness. According to Millan, this means that a dog’s life with its family should mimic stringently the way in which it would supposedly function in a pack.
Though he phrases it differently, what Millan ultimately is, is a staunch believer in what is known as “alpha theory,” an outdated and harmful theory that was originally derived from and applied to the dominance ranking and hierarchical behavior observed in that of captive wolves."

This theory and process has been debunked time and time again.

"Time and time again, alpha theory has been disproved in the face of natural, real-world evidence, and time and time again, uninformed “trainers,” and owners have latched onto these dangerously outdated concepts and attached them to dogs when those concepts never even applied to wolves to begin with."

Cesar Millan: The Problem with His Approach, and The Future of Dog Training

"In accordance with alpha theory, unnecessary and uncomfortable physical contact plays a central role in Millan’s methodologies, and his execution of said methods on his various shows have led to some of the most shocking and heart wrenching scenes knowingly filmed and presented in a positive light.
Throughout his shows, Millan did not seem to believe in a dog’s primary ability to feel stressed, anxious, or fearful, feelings that most good trainers acknowledge a dog can be affected by. His analysis of an animal was always primarily based upon what he believed was the dog’s intent to challenge its status in the pack, or the dog’s inability to grasp its role in the pack. Constantly, issues always seemed to lead back to “the pack.” "


Edit: "His show was riddled with actions that, to any human being, trained or otherwise, could prove to be dangerous and potentially life-threatening to both dogs and humans.
In one episode, Millan chokes a husky until the animal flops on the ground gasping for breath. Throughout the ordeal, the animal transitions from aggression to what is clearly a fight for survival as it struggles to escape Cesar’s grip."

 

[The Hammer]

This is NOT training anything! It's abuse pure and simple.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you feel you need to resort to physical pain to discipline a dog, you shouldn't be allowed to have one.
And the monstrosity that is shock collars should be wrapped around the necks of people who use them so they can be shocked and feel the abuse they've been inflicting.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Shock collars are punishment abusive and cruel, whether you or your trainer says otherwise.

Fixed it.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I won't go near any trainer that still relies on "Alpha Theory".

"In each and every episode of the Dog Whisperer, Millan placed an emphasis on hierarchical pack dynamic, pack leadership, and canine dominance. His whole approach was anchored to the idea that dogs have some innate need to fulfill a natural, primal role in life related to the way wolves behave in the wilderness. According to Millan, this means that a dog’s life with its family should mimic stringently the way in which it would supposedly function in a pack.
Though he phrases it differently, what Millan ultimately is, is a staunch believer in what is known as “alpha theory,” an outdated and harmful theory that was originally derived from and applied to the dominance ranking and hierarchical behavior observed in that of captive wolves."

This theory and process has been debunked time and time again.

"Time and time again, alpha theory has been disproved in the face of natural, real-world evidence, and time and time again, uninformed “trainers,” and owners have latched onto these dangerously outdated concepts and attached them to dogs when those concepts never even applied to wolves to begin with."

Cesar Millan: The Problem with His Approach, and The Future of Dog Training

"In accordance with alpha theory, unnecessary and uncomfortable physical contact plays a central role in Millan’s methodologies, and his execution of said methods on his various shows have led to some of the most shocking and heart wrenching scenes knowingly filmed and presented in a positive light.
Throughout his shows, Millan did not seem to believe in a dog’s primary ability to feel stressed, anxious, or fearful, feelings that most good trainers acknowledge a dog can be affected by. His analysis of an animal was always primarily based upon what he believed was the dog’s intent to challenge its status in the pack, or the dog’s inability to grasp its role in the pack. Constantly, issues always seemed to lead back to “the pack.” "


Edit: "His show was riddled with actions that, to any human being, trained or otherwise, could prove to be dangerous and potentially life-threatening to both dogs and humans.
In one episode, Millan chokes a husky until the animal flops on the ground gasping for breath. Throughout the ordeal, the animal transitions from aggression to what is clearly a fight for survival as it struggles to escape Cesar’s grip."

That's some serious allegations there. Reads like character assassination rather than a serious reveal piece.

Personally I doubt the author. All I ever saw on his shows (and I have seen a bunch, but by no means all of them) is him demonstrating a "calm, assertive" approach.

 

[The Hammer]

That's some serious allegations there. Reads like character assassination rather than a serious reveal piece.

Personally I doubt the author. All I ever saw on his shows (and I have seen a bunch, but by no means all of them) is him demonstrating a "calm, assertive" approach.

The video of Millan I posted shows him choke a Husky until it is "submissive". He kicks the dog into reacting (that isn't training).

It's also not character assassination. Unless one assassinates themselves.

In fact if you read the whole article I posted it even states that Milan has done many good things for the dog community. But his training methods are out of date, and dangerous.

Edit: here is a video of Cesar kicking dogs. Is this proper training? Do you kick a child into behaving? Not slap, or swat, but actually kick.

The video won't work here, just search youtube for Millan kicks dogs. It's got a few hits.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

well, I stand corrected. No, I didn't read the whole article, nor did I view the video.

Funny that over however many decades he's been in the public eye, I don't recall anything of this being brought up before...but then again, I have memory problems...

 

[Secret Chief]

If you feel you need to resort to physical pain to discipline a dog, you shouldn't be allowed to have one.
And the monstrosity that is shock collars should be wrapped around the necks of people who use them so they can be shocked and feel the abuse they've been inflicting.

x10

 

[Secret Chief]

Shock collars? Prong collars? Please tell me this xxxx is going to get banned. A modern country...?

 

[The Hammer]

Shock collars? Prong collars? Please tell me this xxxx is going to get banned. A modern country...?

It is banned in the EU.

 

[Bear Wild]

I won't go near any trainer that still relies on "Alpha Theory".

"In each and every episode of the Dog Whisperer, Millan placed an emphasis on hierarchical pack dynamic, pack leadership, and canine dominance. His whole approach was anchored to the idea that dogs have some innate need to fulfill a natural, primal role in life related to the way wolves behave in the wilderness. According to Millan, this means that a dog’s life with its family should mimic stringently the way in which it would supposedly function in a pack.
Though he phrases it differently, what Millan ultimately is, is a staunch believer in what is known as “alpha theory,” an outdated and harmful theory that was originally derived from and applied to the dominance ranking and hierarchical behavior observed in that of captive wolves."

This theory and process has been debunked time and time again.

"Time and time again, alpha theory has been disproved in the face of natural, real-world evidence, and time and time again, uninformed “trainers,” and owners have latched onto these dangerously outdated concepts and attached them to dogs when those concepts never even applied to wolves to begin with."

Cesar Millan: The Problem with His Approach, and The Future of Dog Training

"In accordance with alpha theory, unnecessary and uncomfortable physical contact plays a central role in Millan’s methodologies, and his execution of said methods on his various shows have led to some of the most shocking and heart wrenching scenes knowingly filmed and presented in a positive light.
Throughout his shows, Millan did not seem to believe in a dog’s primary ability to feel stressed, anxious, or fearful, feelings that most good trainers acknowledge a dog can be affected by. His analysis of an animal was always primarily based upon what he believed was the dog’s intent to challenge its status in the pack, or the dog’s inability to grasp its role in the pack. Constantly, issues always seemed to lead back to “the pack.” "


Edit: "His show was riddled with actions that, to any human being, trained or otherwise, could prove to be dangerous and potentially life-threatening to both dogs and humans.
In one episode, Millan chokes a husky until the animal flops on the ground gasping for breath. Throughout the ordeal, the animal transitions from aggression to what is clearly a fight for survival as it struggles to escape Cesar’s grip."

Absolutely agree. His training is based on the false assumption of the "Alpha Male" that are not seen in the natural world. It just seems to me he is a control freak and the dogs do not have any choice.

 

[Secret Chief]

It is banned in the EU.

Should be banned in any country that calls itself civilised.

 

[Secret Chief]

"Adverse training techniques which have been seen to be used by Cesar Millan can cause pain and fear for dogs and may worsen their behavioural problems."
- RSPCA statement.

- Cesar Millan - Wikipedia

 

[sun rise]

He does not follow 'alpha theory' as it used to be taught. I found his emphasis on my energy with dogs to be spot on as I noted in the earlier anecdote. I don't need to agree with everything Cesar Milan ever said to know that the quote is way way over the top and thus false.

From Cesar Milan's web site:

The Pack Leadership Mentality

Recent studies on pack behavior have reevaluated hierarchy models and have modified our current understanding of behavior of the canine species, a hierarchy relationship between dogs and humans continues to change as we continue studying. More myth than fact, recent research has negated the long standing theory which maintained that alpha dogs control through aggressive habits.

The Do’s And Don’ts Of Positive Reinforcement

Keep it Short and Fun
The goal is to get your dog to realize that good things come when she obeys you. Because of that, you should make training short, fun, and positive — ideally ending on a good note.

How To Get A Dog To Trust You

1. Stay calm
2. Respect their space
3. Get on their level
4. Let them come to you
5. Go for a walk

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He does not follow 'alpha theory' as it used to be taught. I found his emphasis on my energy with dogs to be spot on as I noted in the earlier anecdote. I don't need to agree with everything Cesar Milan ever said to know that the quote is way way over the top and thus false.

From Cesar Milan's web site:

The Pack Leadership Mentality

Recent studies on pack behavior have reevaluated hierarchy models and have modified our current understanding of behavior of the canine species, a hierarchy relationship between dogs and humans continues to change as we continue studying. More myth than fact, recent research has negated the long standing theory which maintained that alpha dogs control through aggressive habits.

The Do’s And Don’ts Of Positive Reinforcement

Keep it Short and Fun
The goal is to get your dog to realize that good things come when she obeys you. Because of that, you should make training short, fun, and positive — ideally ending on a good note.

How To Get A Dog To Trust You

1. Stay calm
2. Respect their space
3. Get on their level
4. Let them come to you
5. Go for a walk

He's punched and choked dogs, and I probably shouldn't say the things I think he should go do. Even with alpha theory, that's abusive.
It's like those chain collars. If people don't have the brains to realize those choke the dog and just are not good should let me drag them around on one until I'm bored and tired with it.

 

[The Hammer]

He does not follow 'alpha theory' as it used to be taught. I found his emphasis on my energy with dogs to be spot on as I noted in the earlier anecdote. I don't need to agree with everything Cesar Milan ever said to know that the quote is way way over the top and thus false.

From Cesar Milan's web site:

The Pack Leadership Mentality

Recent studies on pack behavior have reevaluated hierarchy models and have modified our current understanding of behavior of the canine species, a hierarchy relationship between dogs and humans continues to change as we continue studying. More myth than fact, recent research has negated the long standing theory which maintained that alpha dogs control through aggressive habits.

The Do’s And Don’ts Of Positive Reinforcement

Keep it Short and Fun
The goal is to get your dog to realize that good things come when she obeys you. Because of that, you should make training short, fun, and positive — ideally ending on a good note.

How To Get A Dog To Trust You

1. Stay calm
2. Respect their space
3. Get on their level
4. Let them come to you
5. Go for a walk

He may or may not have changed his ways more recently, that I do not know, but that doesn't negate the years of damage and numerous dogs that have been irreparabley harmed by his actions.

There are dozens of online videos of him hitting, striking, strangling, and otherwise not being a proper trainer. I have posted one instance. But could find one that probably breaks down multiple episodes of his that have aired.

A broken clock can be right twice a day. He may be "spot on" on your energy, does not make the rest of his repertoire acceptable.

 

[sun rise]

This is NOT training anything! It's abuse pure and simple.

That was indeed abuse. He blew it utterly and completely.

But as I wrote earlier, that has not been my experience of him at least the vast majority of the time.

And the simple, calm, unexcited actions on my part had a very dramatic effect on our dog who was hyper excited. And as a matter of fact, it's also worked on the gate to where we take our dog. I've on occasion gotten next to the gate and stood there not allowing dogs to fence fight, without even touching any dogs.

The #1 thing I learned from him is that dogs are very sensitive to us and our energy as the preceding paragraph noted.