doesnt it get old?

[sojourner]

Which is why I didn't use the word. Although a myth can indeed be rooted in historical events, no one has yet shown that those surrounding any god are not made up.


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What do you think about human hope, values, desires, fears, dreams are "made up?" Because those are the things that we image with regard to God.

 

[Thana]

dear christians and everybody else...
doesnt it get old debating over inconsistencies both large and small in the bible?
doesnt it get old having your spirituality so easilly undermined because your religion is so easy to pick apart?

but i see that God helps people, that God can be cool...
why do you need all the extra baggage to pray? why does someone need a religion to believe in God?

something instigated faith within you, whether thats a miracle or a vision.. but why does that mean all the other crap is real?

isnt God enough? do you really need a church, a special Book, or even a devil?

having faith in the book, the palace, etc. its tantamount to idolatry

what if you just believed in GOD

Do you know what does get old?

People who are so insecure about their own beliefs or lackthereof that they have to crap on other people's beliefs for reassurance.

 

[sojourner]

"So, if you want people to believe in a particular god you have to give them a reason, and that reason will amount to fictitious stuff that appeals to them."
It doesn't matter if what you tell them is true or not, just convince that it is.

See above. Religion reflects the things that are deepest in us. In what way can those things be described as "fictitious?" And, BTW, it "appeals" to people, because it resonates with what's inside them.

 

[sojourner]

Do you know what does get old?

People who are so insecure about their own beliefs or lackthereof that they have to crap on other people's beliefs for reassurance.

Indeed.

 

[jojom]

What do you think about human hope, values, desires, fears, dreams are "made up?"

Nope.

Because those are the things that we image with regard to God.

Apply them to whomever or whatever you like, god, angels, faeries, or flounders. Just don't expect me to believe they actually posses them.


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[jojom]

See above. Religion reflects the things that are deepest in us. In what way can those things be described as "fictitious?"

What things are you talking about? In any case we're talking about those things ascribed to god. That these should coincide with "things that are deepest in us" only stands to reason. Think about it.

And, BTW, it "appeals" to people, because it resonates with what's inside them.

That's how appeal works. A Wagyu Kobe steak is appealing because it resonates with our appreciation of good food.


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[sojourner]

Apply them to whomever or whatever you like, god, angels, faeries, or flounders. Just don't expect me to believe they actually posses them.

You're attempting an ontological argument for God. That's not what I'm arguing. Such an argument is pointless. I'm making a theological argument.

What things are you talking about?

hope, values, desires, fears, dreams, etc.

That these should coincide with "things that are deepest in us" only stands to reason.

That's exactly what I'm saying. These things that we say about God aren't "made up." They're part of us.

 

[jojom]

You're attempting an ontological argument for God.

I suggest you look up "ontological argument" before going any further.

hope, values, desires, fears, dreams, etc.

Okay. An unimportant point as it turns out.

That's exactly what I'm saying. These things that we say about God aren't "made up." They're part of us.

Perhaps you've misunderstood. I'm not claiming they (hope, values, desires, fears, dreams, or whatever) aren't a part of you, but ascribing them to god amounts to fiction; you have yet to provide evidence they actually exist in your god, or any god for that matter. Simply claiming they do doesn't cut it.


.

 

[outhouse]

Perhaps you've misunderstood. I'm not claiming they aren't a part of you, but ascribing them to god amounts to fiction;

No it does not.

I think what he is trying to say im context might be what is said "of god" is part of "us"

Fiction is non sequitur to his statement. God does not even have to be real, the thought of god is within them, I believe is the point.

What things are you talking about?

A side of the god concept you may not be aware of. As I am a strong atheist, many of his points are still in agreement with me.

Apply them to whomever or whatever you like, god, angels, faeries, or flounders. Just don't expect me to believe they actually posses them.

Did he make that claim ?


Here is a hint what if the ancient context of god, for some people was your conscious thought in the positive concept of a god, because knowing the social anthropology here, I can promise you this is the case for some.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Tho I do seem like debating from time to time, my intentions are usually to reply to misconceptions, specially the disrespectful ones that have the tendency to spread offensive misconceptions.

Thoughts like "I don't believe your God is real" or "your religion is not credible" I don't debate, because I think they are basically beliefs not attacks, and I respect other conceptual beliefs.

 

[JoStories]

So your not tolerant of other beliefs?

As a strong atheist, I could care less when someone has faith. I have issues when they cross scientific or historical lines, but no issue for their freedom to worship as needed.

very well said Outhouse. I have always liked your posts.

 

[JoStories]

I keep hearing that remark. That the details are made up is your perception. In reality, the details are in the scriptures and are not made up. What God expects (in general) of His children and how He responds to their activities is found in Leviticus 26. The details of what He expects of our behavior is found in several places. Some things may not apply now because we do not live in a theocracy and are not required to live the law of consecration outlined in Leviticus 27. But how God responds to obedience and disobedience stays pretty much the same.
As a side note: When the children of Israel demanded that Samuel the Prophet give them a King; that meant they no longer wanted to live under a theocracy. So, God granted that they could have a king with a warning of what would happen because of that choice.
But that is pretty much what the Old Testament is; a description of how God deals with His people concerning their behavior over time relative to His laws. This has not changed and it is not made up.

You cannot prove it is not made up Either-Ore. If you could, the entire world would be Christian. Since we know that is not true, you can believe that it's not made up but the simple fact is, you cannot prove that claim.

 

[sojourner]

I suggest you look up "ontological argument" before going any further.

Been there and done that, oh... let's see... in graduate school in about 2007.

An unimportant point as it turns out.

Actually, it's THE point of my counterargument.

Perhaps you've misunderstood. I'm not claiming they (hope, values, desires, fears, dreams, or whatever) aren't a part of you, but ascribing them to god amounts to fiction; you have yet to provide evidence they actually exist in your god, or any god for that matter. Simply claiming they do doesn't cut it.

And this amounts to an ontological argument, as I stated. To wit:
"Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being, becoming, existence, or reality, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations." -- Wikipedia
"an ontology is a formal naming and definition of the types, properties, and interrelationships of the entities that really or fundamentally exist for a particular domain of discourse." -- Wikipedia

Ascribing these qualities to God doesn't amount to "fiction," because they represent a theological stance -- and theology isn't "fiction." It's theology. My argument is that what we state about God is a reflection of those things inside ourselves with which we identify most deeply. We take them out and place them in front of us in an "avatar," if you will, that reflects our deepest hope about them. For example, one of our deepest needs is to love and to be loved. So we take the position that "God is love." Because our whole concept of "God" stems from hoping for something bigger, better, and deeper than just ourselves as we seem to be and our perception of reality as it seems to be. Humanity is always striving for more of us, and for deeper meaning of us. That's the real work of theology, to reflect those things we hold most deeply in such a way that "making more" of them lifts humanity in hope. That's not "fiction." You're right: "simply claiming they do doesn't cut it." But it's not as though we're just assigning random qualities to God. It's a systematic venture (in fact, there's a whole theological discipline called "systematic theology," or "constructive theology") that's taken very seriously in order for our construction of God to make sense in light of our real experiences.

We have yet to provide evidence of God's "real existence," much less provide evidence that these attributes "really exist" in God. "Proving God's existence" isn't the issue (although many atheists and skeptics try to use this as a red herring, or a straw man argument). The issue is finding a theological stance that makes sense and provides meaning.
IOW, it's not an ontological endeavor -- defining the reality of God's existence.

 

[Etritonakin]

dear christians and everybody else...
doesnt it get old debating over inconsistencies both large and small in the bible?
doesnt it get old having your spirituality so easilly undermined because your religion is so easy to pick apart?

but i see that God helps people, that God can be cool...
why do you need all the extra baggage to pray? why does someone need a religion to believe in God?

something instigated faith within you, whether thats a miracle or a vision.. but why does that mean all the other crap is real?

isnt God enough? do you really need a church, a special Book, or even a devil?

having faith in the book, the palace, etc. its tantamount to idolatry

what if you just believed in GOD

Useless argument and debate certainly does get old -but imparting understanding is awesome.

My spirituality is not undermined by valid points. Even when I have initially believed otherwise, it has only served to strengthen my spirituality and faith. I love being told that I am incorrect.

Even intense persecution and false accusation has led to me worrying about my state of righteousness less and improving it more.

Communication is important, beneficial and enjoyable in any good relationship -and It can move God to do specific things he would not otherwise have done. He's got an overall plan going on, but he will also do a specific good thing if it is indeed good.

You may no believe it, but God does answer sincere prayer -at times subtly -at times obviously.

God also enjoys hearing from people -listening to our music/singing, etc.
We can actually make God happy and make his day brighter.

We do not need religion to believe in God, but if we are to align ourselves with the government of a God for the good of all, it helps to know what he expects of us -hence the commandments, etc.

All eventually aligning with the one government of the one true God is the only way there will ever be peace on Earth -and eventually throughout the universe -but all in time. It is a lengthy process which is bringing this about. He will cause it to happen -we need not worry -but we can be good examples.

God actually initiates true faith -and none can come to him unless he first draws them to him -but that is only the beginning.

A book which is to be the basis of knowledge and guidance of action is only beneficial if it contains the truth. The bible does contain the truth, but it is "easy to pick apart" partly because it is not a science or math textbook full of things easily reproduced and shown to be true -and partly because few actually read it -or read it with an open mind -so they pick apart things based on assumptions which truly are not biblical.

As for the devil -if one is not aware of his existence -the general history of spirit beings and their abilities -one cannot be adequately spiritually prepared, nor can they eventually understand the process of which it is all a part.

The interplay between humans and spirit beings was not accidental.
Error was inevitable among newly-created creators.
The juxtaposition of different types of beings -experiencing things (including error and the consequences thereof) from different perspectives and eventually considering the perspective of the other -was quite intentional, will eventually benefit all, and is part of what will eventually completely eradicate the possibility for future error, disobedience, destruction, etc....

Scripture says we strive not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers, spiritual hosts of wickedness in high places -and that striving will lead to our mastery of sin and righteousness. Lowly man overcoming sin, being made immortal and eventually judging the affairs of angels will also have a psychological effect on the disobedient angels. What they do with that is their choice -and they will be subject to the judgments reserved for them by God -but God would not utterly destroy any unless there was no hope at all.

Belief in God is not enough. One must have knowledge of the truth, correct vision, a clearly defined path and faith strong enough to allow rejection of sin under any circumstance -with the certainty that God himself will decide the outcome.

 

[RedDragon94]

I like and agree with everything you said with the exception of your last statement. If forgiveness and forbearance are real, we will all be fully welcome at God's party.

Well maybe this statement should apply more to the church then since it is suppose to represent God to the outsider.

 

[RedDragon94]

stuff that appeals to them

I find comfort in knowing God, not everything about him appeals to me either. It's like falling in love with a troubled individual.

 

[jojom]

And this amounts to an ontological argument, as I stated.

If I was out to make an argument for his existence then it certainly could be; however, I was not. My remark was simply a comment, Not An Argument, about the characteristics people ascribe to god. Nothing more nothing less. You've taken the ball and ran with it when there was no game going on.


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[Etritonakin]

I like and agree with everything you said with the exception of your last statement. If forgiveness and forbearance are real, we will all be fully welcome at God's party.

That is actually true. All are always welcome, but those who refuse to follow necessary house rules cannot enter.
When they eventually learn to do so, they may enter and will be welcomed.

That which is outside seems desirable, but it takes time and experience to realize it is not to be desired.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

 

[Goblin]

Do you believe these various authors had had some kind of genuine relationship with God.

Apparently not everyone can hear God. A lot of folks claim they can't. So how they going to know anything about God except through second hand knowledge. They'd need to have faith that the baggage they are carrying will get them somewhere.

People assume these accounts of God should have some consistency is all. If it is God behind what folks are hearing from God, they should all be hearing the same thing. If you are looking for consistency but keep finding inconsistency what are you going to think.

im absolutely not looking for consistencies....
you kinda made one of my points is that the people who listen to the "spirit" or whatever they want to label it, all have different opinions on it.
geez people even fight over what gender to reference a genderless being. God or Goddess?
i think of God like a Mama, so i like to call it she, but really IT has no gender(since God doesnt need to make more Gods, which would be the purpose of God having a gender). but how many people are gonna complain about this tiny detail...

everyone who hears the whisper of the spirit comes up with different conclusions.
consider ten people run into the same guy, they have ten different vibes they got from him.

the point is that people who are into higher powers should do more praying less book study.

it is just like assuming you know someone because you read a facebook post about him written by a guy he or she met. which is often false.

btw sorry ive been gone for a day

 

[Goblin]

Do you know what does get old?

People who are so insecure about their own beliefs or lackthereof that they have to crap on other people's beliefs for reassurance.

i just couldnt help but laugh at this.