Does the Universe need a Cause?

[PolyHedral]

I guess the members of this board; at least the two on right now, are quite utterly ignorant of what they want to pontificate about. I am not going to provide an education in fundamental physics. If you are not informed, go to a different topic.

You seem to believe that this is the only possible set of physical laws. That's not true.

Your last sentence was nothing more than a silly non sequitur.

The exact same process goes on when you compare infinite sets and count finite ones. If you want to say that different orders of infinity are meaningless, you are saying that counting is meaningless.

I used to believe in the Anthropic Principle, but, you know what? It ain't scientific. Not a predictive model... it's really that simple. I mean, for validity, it is far better to use established theory than what amounts to - an idea of last resort. Which is what many scientists actually believe: it is an interesting coincidence that provides an avenue for exploration when, you know, the more sensible alternatives fail to generate valid theory... I mean, I can come up with details; I'd be surprised if someone around here did more research on the Anthropic Principle than I... but let's get right down to it.

The anthropic principle I've seen, ("The universe must be able to sustain life, because otherwise we wouldn't be here") is basically trivially true. It doesn't tell you anything particularly useful in making predictions, but it has some philosophical implications.

 

[ellenjanuary]

The anthropic principle I've seen, ("The universe must be able to sustain life, because otherwise we wouldn't be here") is basically trivially true. It doesn't tell you anything particularly useful in making predictions, but it has some philosophical implications.

The weak one - likely to sustain life. I ain't weak, I'm all jiggy with the Strong - mandated to sustain life. And even so, it don't say god; it say cool mathematics...

That's kinda funny; you mention "philosophical implications," Righteous Rodney builds a rickshaw, there are all these professional scientists who dance up and and around "curious concidence..." and little ol' ellen, having no problem with pure number "getting all jiggy with it" all by its lonesome in the transition from non-entropic to structure just cause that's how **** works.

But there is also the hidden element into researching causality... I just don't get - every cause needs an effect - like some kinda law when causality is a nest of snakes.

And yeah, First Cause automatically equal god? Don't these people realize that we're talking **** like quantum fluctuation or cosmic vibration? It's like god is a fart... they are worshiping flatulence... and worrying about my soul...

 

[smokeybear]

Mind defines what we and our world are.

Definition limits -- this... not that.

Therefore, mind cannot conceive of infinity because infinity is both this and that.

Infinity can only be experienced.

For that, mind must go.

.
​

 

[PolyHedral]

Therefore, mind cannot conceive of infinity because infinity is both this and that.

The mathematicians disagree. They've pinned down infinity, took it to pieces, and even made it bigger.

 

[smokeybear]

Abstractions are not knowledge.

A mathematician who believes he found infinity in an equation is like believer who thinks he found God in a book.

Like any other knowledge, infinity must be experienced personally to be known.

Anything short of personal experience is belief.

.
​

 

[PolyHedral]

Discrete "experiences" are abstractions. Biologically, your life is completely continuous.

Personal experience is even more so a belief than most abstractions, since you have no guarantee about where your experience came from. The simulation hypothesis is viable for almost everything, except for mathematics.

 

[tumbleweed41]

It cannot be shown that a cause is necessary for the Universe to exist.

 

[smokeybear]

"Personal experience is even more so a belief than most abstractions, since you have no guarantee about where your experience came from."


That is why mind must go.

Experience beyond mind is the only direct experience. Belief is of mind.

Mathematicians cannot experience infinity. Mind is in the way. Once mind goes, they are no longer mathematicians.

However, mathematical proof of infinity does make a good fire-starter if written on a paper pad.

.
​

 

[PolyHedral]

"Personal experience is even more so a belief than most abstractions, since you have no guarantee about where your experience came from."


That is why mind must go..

Memory is part of the mind.

 

[smokeybear]

Correct. Mind is memory.

We're getting into an esoteric realm so don't expect any mathematical proofs. This is an area one must play around with himself through introspection.

DO, DO THIS AT HOME.

The ancient Vedanta, Sufi and Gnostic Christian teachings say that mind is actually a separate body which stores impressions from actions over many lifetimes. That mental body is mind. The brain is merely a computer receiver much like the one you are using now. The memory is cloud memory as in "cloud computing".

Those mental impressions tell us who we are in any given lifetime. The impressions, along with cultural programming, also define reality for us. That definition prevents us from experiencing reality as it is. (This dovetails with your simulation hypothesis.)

Infinity by definition (ha,ha) is the only reality. All else is Maya, or the pull of imagination.

The Catch 22 paradox is that imagination is necessary to propel evolution. A tree HAS to believe it is a tree. A rabbit HAS to believe it is a rabbit. Because consciousness reaches fulfillment in man, a man HAS to believe in all the crap he believes in.

NONE of these beliefs are real knowledge. It is only when an individual mind begins to see it's limitations that involution begins.

Involution is the painfully slow process to shed mental impressions. It begins when an individual realizes the limitations of mind.

"Been there done that." is a cosmic understatement.

For the ultimate rebel it is:

"Thought this, thought that, thought everything."

********
​

When smokeybear gets 15 posts under is thick belt, he can link to all kinds of interesting stuff including his sacrilegious blogs.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Correct. Mind is memory.

We're getting into an esoteric realm so don't expect any mathematical proofs. This is an area one must play around with himself through introspection.

DO, DO THIS AT HOME.

The ancient Vedanta, Sufi and Gnostic Christian teachings say that mind is actually a separate body which stores impressions from actions over many lifetimes. That mental body is mind. The brain is merely a computer receiver much like the one you are using now. The memory is cloud memory as in "cloud computing".

Those mental impressions tell us who we are in any given lifetime. The impressions, along with cultural programming, also define reality for us. That definition prevents us from experiencing reality as it is. (This dovetails with your simulation hypothesis.)

Infinity by definition (ha,ha) is the only reality. All else is Maya, or the pull of imagination.

The Catch 22 paradox is that imagination is necessary to propel evolution. A tree HAS to believe it is a tree. A rabbit HAS to believe it is a rabbit. Because consciousness reaches fulfillment in man, a man HAS to believe in all the crap he believes in.

NONE of these beliefs are real knowledge. It is only when an individual mind begins to see it's limitations that involution begins.

Involution is the painfully slow process to shed mental impressions. It begins when an individual realizes the limitations of mind.

"Been there done that." is a cosmic understatement.

For the ultimate rebel it is:

"Thought this, thought that, thought everything."

********
​

When smokeybear gets 15 posts under is thick belt, he can link to all kinds of interesting stuff including his sacrilegious blogs.

I thought you were the one says... Don't play with matches.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

"Atheists themselves used to be very comfortable in maintaining that the universe is eternal and uncaused. The problem is that they can no longer hold that position because modern evidence that the universe started with the Big Bang. So they can't legitimately object, when I make the same claim about God-he is eternal and he is uncaused."

[youtube]wcHp_LWGgGw[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHp_LWGgGw&feature=player_embedded

 

[Dirty Penguin]

"Atheists themselves used to be very comfortable in maintaining that the universe is eternal and uncaused. The problem is that they can no longer hold that position because modern evidence that the universe started with the Big Bang. So they can't legitimately object, when I make the same claim about God-he is eternal and he is uncaused."

Who are these Atheist you speak of because I certainly never thought this.....

 

[Kilgore Trout]

"Atheists themselves used to be very comfortable in maintaining that the universe is eternal and uncaused.

If I was willing to make irrational assumptions about the origins of the universe, then I'd probably just be a theist.

 

[McBell]

"Atheists themselves used to be very comfortable in maintaining that the universe is eternal and uncaused. The problem is that they can no longer hold that position because modern evidence that the universe started with the Big Bang. So they can't legitimately object, when I make the same claim about God-he is eternal and he is uncaused."

So much bull **** in so little space.
I am impressed.
Did you think that up yourself or are you merely parroting someone else?

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Who are these Atheist you speak of because I certainly never thought this.....

He's probably talking about the atheist of 20th century, who assumed that the universe was eternal..

 

[A Thousand Suns]

If I was willing to make irrational assumptions about the origins of the universe, then I'd probably just be a theist.

And if I was willing to make Irrational assumptions , that the universe just pooped into existence 13 billion years ago without a cause and then it was delicately/exquisitely fine tuned all by itself , then i'd probably be a atheist

No room for "Chance" In my Universe!

 

[PolyHedral]

So much bull **** in so little space.
I am impressed.
Did you think that up yourself or are you merely parroting someone else?

It appears on Google quite a lot, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was stolen from somewhere.

No room for "Chance" In my Universe!

Then you are wrong. Chance, chaos and randomness underpin the universe on the most fundamental of scales.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

And if I was willing to make Irrational assumptions , that the universe just pooped into existence 13 billion years ago without a cause and then it was delicately/exquisitely fine tuned all by itself , then i'd probably be a atheist

I doubt it. An atheist wouldn't make such a statement.

Either way, you seem to make the mistake of limiting yourself to irrational choices.

 

[Skwim]

I doubt it. An atheist wouldn't make such a statement.

Either way, you seem to make the mistake of limiting yourself to irrational choices.

Sometimes it's the only way to save one's belief. It's why creationists are forced to lie and continually repeat old, worn out arguments; there are no other options.