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Does the Existence of Mathematics Depend on the Existence of the Universe?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Does the existence of mathematics depend on the existence of the universe, or does mathematics represent something that could at least conceivably exist independent of any physical reality?

Why or why not?




BONUS QUESTION: Correctly guess Rival's favorite sex toy and her preferred color for it.

(Hint: It can be argued the human brain is the sexiest sex toy of all, and a healthy one is typically pink-grey.)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Perhaps maths does not need the universe but like the number 0, it looks pretty lonely on its own.

The above applies to practical mathematics, abstract mathematics is a whole different ballgame.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
As for Rivals fave sex toy, if you didn't specify a colour i would have said chocolate sauce
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The way I see it (and I am a mathematician) is that math is either a game or a language.

For mathematicians, math tends to be a game: can we figure out how to prove some proposition from the axioms everyone assumes? It is like a very long, involved strategy game with the axioms.

For those who *use* math, on the other hand, math is a *language* that can be quite helpful for organizing thoughts and making predictions. It is a very precise language, so it encourages certain types of precision in our thoughts.

Both aspects of math seem to require conscious beings, though. And so I see math as being dependent on the existence of those beings and hence on the existence of the universe.
 
For those who *use* math, on the other hand, math is a *language* that can be quite helpful for organizing thoughts and making predictions. It is a very precise language, so it encourages certain types of precision in our thoughts...

Both aspects of math seem to require conscious beings, though. And so I see math as being dependent on the existence of those beings and hence on the existence of the universe.

Beyond conscious individuals, would you say that maths requires a reality to map? So you can make predictions due to the fact that these correspond with an observed reality. It can help organise thoughts because these relate to parts of a reality that can be described by maths.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Beyond conscious individuals, would you say that maths requires a reality to map? So you can make predictions due to the fact that these correspond with an observed reality. It can help organise thoughts because these relate to parts of a reality that can be described by maths.

No. I do NOT think that doing math requires a reality to map. Much of math has very little, if anything, to do with 'reality'. Or, if it does, the connection is not yet known.

Historically, math was invented to help model reality. That much is certainly true. It was found useful for keeping track of the areas of fields and the amount of grain produced, and how large a building needed to be to store that grain. But, again, that is the language aspect of math.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Does the existence of mathematics depend on the existence of the universe, or does mathematics represent something that could at least conceivably exist independent of any physical reality?

Why or why not?

Math is a useful tool but only works as well as the foundation premises that are used. For example in computer games, the physics engines that allow the characters to fly, take damage, and regenerate are controlled by math.

In this case, the assumptions and premises behind the math are modified so the game play is more exciting. Math is like a faithful horse and will dutifully follow the bidding of the rider. This is why it is very important to make sure foundation premises of science are sound, since the math is not prejudice of any assumption by the rider, even if not fully true.

Here is an interesting example of the power of math. I can use a simple principle of math to prove one the miracles in the bible. The miracle is Jesus feeding the multitude of thousands with just a few fish and a few loaves of bread. All he had to do with divide the fish and bread by a fraction; 1/1000.

One Fish times 1/(1/1000)=1000 fish.

This particulate math operation cannot be demonstrated in reality, unless it is done as a miracle. The mechanics of this operation leaves the realm of reality but it is nevertheless the basis for many important math relations, such as in Special Relativity; Lorentz transform.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The way I see it (and I am a mathematician) is that math is either a game or a language.

For mathematicians, math tends to be a game: can we figure out how to prove some proposition from the axioms everyone assumes? It is like a very long, involved strategy game with the axioms.

For those who *use* math, on the other hand, math is a *language* that can be quite helpful for organizing thoughts and making predictions. It is a very precise language, so it encourages certain types of precision in our thoughts.

Both aspects of math seem to require conscious beings, though. And so I see math as being dependent on the existence of those beings and hence on the existence of the universe.

Is math dependant on humans?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Everyone knows that one is the loneliest number.
It's basic math.

Thats the song but Nope, its definitely zero. You can have as many as you want but they are nothing without another number to give them value.

There is nothing more lonely that being valueless
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Thats the song but Nope, its definitely zero. You can have as many as you want but they are nothing without another number to give them value.

There is nothing more lonely that being valueless
This documentary proves me correct....
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
This documentary proves me correct....


0000000000000000000000000

So many zeros together are just the same as 0

But add a 1 and they become something

10000000000000000000000000

Or even

.00000000000000000000000001

So i think the experts in your documentary are wrong
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
That's approx zero anyway.

It's a documentary.
You're not.

Approx but significant, the one makes it significant, if its significant it is not lonely.

Experts can be wrong and i am woman so who is right? Ask Mrs Revolt.

It like when people say they are scared of heights. Very common fear, lots of expert research but all wrong.

People are quite happy to look up at heights.

The problem is if they are up high and looking down... Down is depths, not heights.

The saying should logically be 'i am scared of depths'
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Approx but significant, the one makes it significant, if its significant it is not lonely.

Experts can be wrong and i am woman so who is right? Ask Mrs Revolt.

It like when people say they are scared of heights. Very common fear, lots of expert research but all wrong.

People are quite happy to look up at heights.

The problem is if they are up high and looking down... Down is depths, not heights.

The saying should logically be 'i am scared of depths'
Lisa Simpson is not only female, she's famous.
 
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