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Does Man Really Have a Soul?

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
I just started thinking about this from a response I posted in another thread:
Does Man really have a soul? Or do we confuse conscience with having a soul? Why are we so certain that we have a soul, but that a plant or animal does not? Is it merely because they cannot express a conscience?
IF Man has a soul, what evidence is there of it?

Let's see where this baby goes. :)

TVOR
 

Lintu

Active Member
I think the soul is what houses our personality. I've never met a plant with personality :)
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
I believe we have souls. I don't know that i can provide evidence other than my own beliefs. Within each of us is a divine spark which gives us things like a consceince, a moral compass, and the ability to reason, to escape our baser instincts. I think the only real certainty we have in the existence of a soul, tho, is based upon religious and spiritual ideas, i don't know that science has "proven" its existance.
As far as plants and animals go...i don't know if they have a soul or not...i don't see why not tho just maybe not on the same level as man if that makes any sense.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Good question!

Personally I think man does, and that's why we seek after God.

The Bible teaches that we were created in the image of God. Too many times, we are thinking on the physical plain, and so we would need to see that God has no race, no color. We can't even look on him... so how are we created in his likeness? By our souls.

We have the capacity to choose evil.

I have never seen an animal sin.

I have never seen a plant sin.

We have the capacity to choose love. Not just affection, but love.

That is seen by putting other's needs ahead of yourself. Animals get close when they protect their offspring, but you never see an animal helping another animal unless there is some form of symbiotic relationship. Unfortunately, it's very rare in humans too! When it happens it stands out like a flag. We applaud it and we celebrate it, but we rarely do it.

Romans 12 tells Christians that they are to be "living sacrifices". We are to serve others rather than ourselves. Unfortunately, the biggest problem with living sacrifices is that we keep crawling off of the alter.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
It depends on how much weight you give to the originator of Scripture. In Torah, Living Creature is a Soul. On the other hand the Greek concept of soul.UGH!!! You are free to choose
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Jewscout and NetDoc - I really like both of your answers. I personally haven't thought about this yet, so I'm not sure if I agree (in part or in whole) or disagree with what you have said, but I really do like your answers.

Ronald - what exactly is the Greek concept of soul? I'm looking to learn something here.

Thanks,
TVOR
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Lintu said:
I think the soul is what houses our personality. I've never met a plant with personality :)
Sorry Lintu - I didn't see your post. I agree, that I have never seen a plant with personality, but does that really mean that the plant can't have a soul? Is it possible that the soul houses the personality, along with other facets of our being - some that a plant might have?

TVOR
 

Lintu

Active Member
Thinking of the soul as a personality is what helps me identify with it. I think my dog has a soul, after all. But then again, I think there is a spiritual life force in all things. Whatever it is that makes a plant alive rather than dead could be a soul, but I don't see it the same way as an animate soul.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Here's a thought - did Man invent the idea of having a soul simply to distance himself from the plants and animals? In effect, justifying his "dominion over them".

TVOR

PS - Eight replies, and already this thread is getting deep!!
 

Solly

Fides Quærens Intellectum
I posted this elsewhere, last year, apologies for the length, they have a 24k limit on posts

Biblical Anthropology: A minority view

Sources:
P S Johnston, "Humanity", in New Dictionary of Biblical Theology
J K Chamblin, "Psychology", in Dictionary of Paul and his Letters
D Guthrie, New Testament Theology, pp164f
H Ridderbos, Paul
J W Cooper, Body Soul and Life Everlasting, 2nd Edition
R Nash, Ultimate Questions

"[To speak of a person's soul] is not to speak of a ghost residing in a person. It is to speak of the person himself - that essential core which makes us persons. Christians are very clear that we are meant to be embodied. In this life and in our ultimate intended state after death, personhood is expressed in bodily form: it is incarnated [my emphasis]. But our personhood can survive the death of our present bodies. The power of God which gives us life now, can continue our conscious personal history in a new body.
C Stephen Evans, The Quest for Faith, p123, q in Ronald Nash, Ultimate Questions, p375"

The question of Biblical anthropology has two foci: the Biblical evidence, and theological exposition. It is the belief of many over recent decades that the theological exposition of the Biblical evidence has been slanted by extra-biblical considerations, to wit, Greek neoPlatonist philosophy, which entered the church during the ECF times, and has never been fully expunged. We see such considerations arising in the field of the Doctrine of God, as related by the proponents of Open Theism, who claim that the Classic understanding of God owes more to Greek philosophical concepts such as "impassibility", than to the Biblical picture of God. Whether it does or not (and i own a certain influence, but not to the extent OVers do) is not the issue here. MY post will examine anthropology, with the same concern.
In common parlance, the idea is that we are two parts: a corporeal shell, which shall die, and an imm ortal soul, which shall not. We often say that we have a soul (while ignoring the illogic of that statement: who is it that has a soul); we consider that the soul is perduring in itself, is naturally immortal, and the old idea of the after-life is of "souls" in heaven with God. This view was reinforced by Descartes and his dualism, which bedevils Western thinking in all areas of our lives, ie, that Intellectual pursuits are better than manual ones, and that intelligence is a measure of worth.
Christianity has generally held to what is termed the dichotomous view of human anthropology (body and soul), with the Eastern orthodox holding to a trichotomy (body, soul, and spirit). There is trichotomy within Western Christian thought, but usually as related to those who are born again, and thus become body, soul and spirit. During the 17th century, such views came under attack philosophically, from a materialistic angle, and later in the discoveries of neurobiology in the 20th, but within Christian thought, the idea of an ontological dualism was attacked by such as Oscar Cullmann, coming from a Biblical Theology angle, who challenged what he saw as incipient platonist dualism with a more Biblical Hebraic holism (or as John Cooper calls it [see sources] Holistic Dualism).

The Scriptural Evidence
In the Old Testament, we find the word nepeš.
It denotes the whole person, as a "living being",
Scripture Verse:

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require;
Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:


It has a wider use following on from that main use, such as "inner desires" covering a range from simple physical appetites to longing to serve God,
Scripture Verse:

Pro 23:1 When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:
Pro 23:2 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.


Though the word is at times translated as "soul" in our English versions, it does not denote "soul" in a dualistic sense. That would be reading into the text.
Another word used in the OT is ruach, often translated as spirit. it is often used to denote the link between humans and the Divine, by denoting non-physical attributes such as thoughts, abilities, etc:
Scripture Verse:

Exo 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all [that are] wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

.
Overall, the OT presents an anthropology of humanity based on a psychosomatic unity, rather than the duality of a material body holding a separate though interacting immaterial soul. Its eschatology also is focussed not on the separation of "body" and "soul", though there are indications of this in their view of the place of the dead, but the final reunion of the two in the resurrection.
Scripture Verse:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.


Non Biblicists would of course point this out as being evidence of the primitive nature of Hebrew beliefs, in which everything is grounded in a "realistic" view of things, and that only physicaly resurrection and future life is what counts. So be it, let them say.

In the New Testament we find an equal emphasis on the whole person, in which salvation is not simply a matter of getting our souls into heaven, but the future resurrection and blessing of being in whole bodies is the aim.
Two main terms are used, particularly in Paul, that of psyche and pneuma, with synonyms. The two terms represent different aspects of nonphysical human nature (only a complete Eliminative Materialist would deny that mental events are not physical at all), and that the use of these terms is primarly relational and theological, rather than biological and psychological. Psyche represents our relations to this world, this present evil age; pneuma represents our relations to God and the future age. From such terms Paul derives psychikon and pneumatikon, natural and spiritual.

Psyche. "Soul" in most EVV. This is, Guthrie points out, the least important of Paul's terms, occuring only 13 times in his writings. it denotes firstly, a man's life, his natural beingness,
Scripture Verse:

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
Phi 2:30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.


It denotes oneself:
Scripture Verse:

1Th 2:8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.


It denotes life as such, whether human or not:
Scripture Verse:

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?


Its opposite is apsychos = lifeless.
It denotes the whole person:
Scripture Verse:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


It even seems to denote will, or intention:
Scripture Verse:

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart [where one might expect to find kardia;
Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;


Some might point to
Scripture Verse:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


But this is one verse, and appears to be emphatic in its usage; you can't build a doctrine on one verse, and this favours the tripartite view, not the dichotomous view of standard Western theology.
It is noted by Guthrie that Paul never links "body" and "soul" in a definition of the human person, since either covers both ideas; he has no "lofty" view of the soul apart from the whole person; and that pneuma has priority in his view, utilizing the meaning range of nepeš, and also modifying it.

continued...
 

Solly

Fides Quærens Intellectum
part 2

Pneuma. Spirit in most EVV. A specifically Chrisitan denotation, and referring to Christians alone. It stands, not in contrast to psyche, but sarx, "flesh", or humanity in oppostion to God; it denotes the whole man as committed to God, the Christian self. (Soul being left to denote our relations to the world neutrally). "Spirit" is that which is revived at conversion, and which becomes the dominant influence in the human makeup. It is to be noted, however, that Paul is not a spiritualist, looking for a separate "thing" in the human makeup.
Guthrie writes that:

"Paul is so strongly influenced by the Hebrrew idea of the whole man that Greek notions of separate functions have only a minimum impact on Paul's thinking."

Guthrie goes on to note:

"Since man as a unity is in line with Hebrew thought, this seems most basic to Paul, but when he introduces the spiritual element he does so in a way unknown to hebrew thought, and this introduces a dual idea."

However, contra Guthrie, the very Hebrew idea of the new Covenant blessing of a new heart seems to be exactly what Paul has in mind when he speaks of pneuma.
It is also to be noted, as per Chamblin, that Paul's ideas actually predeated nonJewish ideas on the subject - that just as formerly it was thought Gnosticism was more advanced that it actually was in Paul and John's day, so it is now viewed that neoPlatonism, and the ideas of Philo were not as widespread as previously thought. Paul's ideas are rooted in OT scripture and Second Temple Judaism. Equally, as also pointed out, Paul does not share the Greek concern with developing a psychology as such, but with dealing with man's relationship to God, the world, the flesh and sin. And as such, he develops a relational "spirituality" in which there is not a pneumatikos, a spiritual body controlled by a spirit, nor a biotype, but simply man as living in the realm of the Spirit, cf πνευμα κτλ TDNT 6:332-445. Paul Jewett, in Paul's Anthropological Terms points out that Paul borrowed terms from his conversation partners, redefining them to suit the need of his argument (quoted by Chamblin in DPL).

Towards a Biblical Anthropology
Chamblin goes on to point out that the difference between pauline thought and much of Christian theology is that paul posits one person indivisible, though distinguishable in parts 9relationally, not biologically), as opposed to man divisible, though ideally inseparable (though Christian theology has sometimes failed on this last point). He references ???? in TDNT 9:608-666:

"The unity of human nature [in the OT] is not expresed by the antithetical concepts of body and soul, but by the complementary and inseparable conepts of body and life."

For Paul, psyche never denotes the higher part of the person; Paul never joins soma [body] and psyche together as parts of the whole. There is no doctrine of the innate immortality of the soul.
Other writers who address this matter speak of "anthropological dualism" Gundry, or "functional holism" (vs ontological holism) and "holistic dualism" (vs holistic monism), J W Cooper.
The end result of this is that we are not looking for a soul inhabiting a shell - something neuroscience has never found, and which sceptics make great capital out of; we are not looking for a ghost in the machine to provide the autonomous Self that provides the functionality of libertarian free will. We look at the whole person, under God, whether regenerate or not. incipient materialism? Let others decide. I am not an occasionalist; I believe God uses means, and creates a very real functioning world that can be investigated, just as Socrates does, and I do not see how using evidence from science automatically makes one a materialist.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
The Voice of Reason said:
Here's a thought - did Man invent the idea of having a soul simply to distance himself from the plants and animals? In effect, justifying his "dominion over them".

TVOR
perhaps, but i'd argue that Man may have come up w/ the concept of a soul to go hand in hand with the concept of the afterlife, you know, so you won't feel so bad when grandma dies, she's not really gone her soul's just gone off to a new plane of existance that you will go to as well.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Solly -

I mean absolutely no disrespect, but to be honest, I'm not going to debate (never have and never will) anything that is based on scripture from a Holy Text from any religion (although others may well choose to do so). I do not dismiss them out of hand (that is to say, I do read the posts), but since I do not adhere to the religion of the text, I do not feel qualified to respond to those posts.

As for the beginning of your first post, the author is really talking about the transmigration of souls. I started the thread to try to see why we even think we have a soul.

Thanks (and I mean that sincerely),
TVOR
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
The Voice of Reason said:
I just started thinking about this from a response I posted in another thread:
Does Man really have a soul? Or do we confuse conscience with having a soul? Why are we so certain that we have a soul, but that a plant or animal does not? Is it merely because they cannot express a conscience?
IF Man has a soul, what evidence is there of it?

Hinduism says that man has a "self" that does not change from life to life, an atman. Even if one doesn't believe in reincarnation (and I am totally agnostic about what happens to us after death), I think that's what a soul is - that core part of us that does not change over time, even tho our memories and personalities do.

Hinduism also says that our atman is the same as God's Atman. Our 'self' is part of the collective 'Self.' (This is Emerson's idea of the OverSoul.) So if one believes that God is good (and I do) then our souls - our core beings - are good. You can get the same message from Genesis when it says that God made humans in God's image and pronounced God's creation to be "good." As a UU, I see our atman/soul as the "divine spark within each of us."

So our soul, being divine and being good, is that which guides us morally and gives us compassion and allows us to perceive wisdom. It is also that which causes us to seek after God (since the whole goal in Hinduism is to return to God). For you atheists/agnostics out there, one doesn't have to think of it as seeking after God. One can think of the soul as the thing that causes us to seek after a higher value than ourselves, such as social justice. The way that I see it, because we have that spark to the divine, we are attracted to divinity, and "divinity" need not be the transcendant, it can be in the natural world. The whole point is that the soul points us outwards, away from our own self-centered concerns.

Evidence of a soul would be conscience, a sense of morality, a yearning for something bigger than oneself, even if it's just a romantic relationship with another person (not just sex).

Lastly, Hinduism (and I) do not assume that only humans have souls. Animals (and possibly plants?) have souls but because their bodies and dharmas are different from humans, their atmans express themselves differently.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Did man create the concept of "soul"?

I think man's concept of God logically gives him the concept of soul.

Those who worshipped nature probably saw no need for it.

Those who saw gods as merely being superhuman also saw no need for it.

But those convinced of a higher power, can see the absolute truth without the need to invent it.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Thanks, Lilithu. What does that imply about those human beings that are clearly "soulless". By that, I am asking, what about the Gary Gilmores or Ted Bundys of this world? Is something "wrong" with their soul? Did God endow them with a soul less perfect?

Thanks,
TVOR
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Note on Pneuma (Spirit)... it is acturally derived from the Greek for "wind". Something that is, but you just can't grasp it. We get the word "pneumatic" or "powered by air" from that word.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Great book to read, VOR: "Out of the Silent Planet" by CS Lewis. CS Lewis was a close friend of JRR Tolkien and they shared a common love languages. His science fiction trilogy shows an awesome insight into the human psyche.

In it he introduces a new language, and one of the words is "hnau"... meaning living being. Something that does not follow the natural rules of things is referred to as a "bent hnau". This all gets back to his philological study on Nature, Natura and Phusis.

By nature a chair is a chair. It is filled with "chairness". When the chair loses a leg, it does not stop being a chair, but rather loses some of it's "chairness". Humans are filled with "humanity". Ted Bundy, et al have lost some of their humanity, but they are still human. They are "bent hnau". The Bible refers to this as "sin". A perfect human has no sin, but as they lose their humanity, they become imperfect or "lost". A man's soul consists of that "humanity", the part that mirrors God. Unfortunately, as humanity leaves, it is replaced by inhumanity... the reflection of Satan. Paul refers to himself as a "Wretched man" for he knows what is right to do, but he does the opposite.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
The Voice of Reason said:
Ronald - what exactly is the Greek concept of soul? I'm looking to learn something here.

Thanks,
TVOR
I'm afraid you won't learn much new as it is the common view of soul. But here it is.
Pneuma; Air, wind, breath by analogy or figurative, a spirit i.e. (human) vital principal, mental disposition,ghost, life, spirit, mind. Which is the rational and immortal soul.
Which is a way of saying we are gods, Eternal! Which we are not. Since you do not wish to discuss Bible, I'll close with that! :162:
 
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