IsaiahX
Ape That Loves
Omnipotence has multiple meanings, one of which describes a being that can do anything in agreement with its own nature. God can only do what he wants to do, and if he does not want to sin, he cannot. He is still omnipotent.
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Does God have Free Will?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Omnipotence has multiple meanings, one of which describes a being that can do anything in agreement with its own nature. God can only do what he wants to do, and if he does not want to sin, he cannot. He is still omnipotent.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I see what you're saying, or rather asking. I'd say "no," it's not possible. I believe God's nature is to be "good" rather than "evil" but that it's because He chooses it to be. I don't believe He would ask us to choose good over evil without an understanding of what that entails and how difficult it can be to be pulled in two different directions by two very powerful forces. When Jesus Christ told His disciples to "be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect," I believe He was asking us to choose good so consistently that it becomes our very nature to be good.
make sense
Audie
Veteran Member
"Cannot" and "will not" are two different things.
It is kind of why we have different words.
It is easier than that. "God" cannot sin (like, say, send
a proxy to murder all the first born of Egypt,) because
he gets to set the rules. If he does it , it aint sin.
Skwim
Veteran Member
What? !!!! Exactly how does
8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
support your claim that
"The point is that God, as an infinite and transcendant being, does not always expirience emotions in the same way we do."
Sheesh!
.
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sealchan
Well-Known Member
There seems to be a grey area regarding creating a possibility, taking responsibility for that creation and being free from having accountability for that responsibility.
That is why, IMO, the concept of free will is so important. Moral choices (that is the free will of a God who is seen as morally good by definition) make problematic a God who has created a reality that harbors evil if that God is to be seen as all good.
If you take away God's free will then you can make Him immune to immorality in His created world. If you take away God's omniscience or omnipotence, you can achieve the same. But having all three means that evil in God's creation (the sole creator) implies responsibility on the part of the creator.
Just as humanity cannot judge God for the creation because we are not so knowledgeable and powerful to be able to make such a judgment, God cannot judge us for introducing anything new in His creation because we are, again, not so knowledgeable without God's contrivance to do as much.
My own view, which preserves the option for God to have free will is that God is amoral but wants us to strive for moral behavior. This retains God as sole creator, responsible, in part, for His creation, but it allows for God to be good-oriented when it comes to His relating to other beings capable of moral discrimination.
IsaiahX
Ape That Loves
What? !!!! Exactly how does
8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
support your claim that
?
"The point is that God, as an infinite and transcendant being, does not always expirience emotions in the same way we do."
Sheesh!This isn't even addressing the point.
.
Very sorry. I meant to say Isaiah 55:8-9.
The point was that if since disobeying God's law causes suffering, scripture was attempting to explain his compassion for the pain of his creations, although in figurative terms (we can assume that that the author was being figurative, as he seems to believe that God is transcendent and perfect based on the verses above.)
ObjectOfMercy
Member
Yes, God is free to do as He wills. However the Bible says it is impossible for God to lie. But again, He is not willing to lie, so He is perfectly free in His will to accomplish all that He wills. Whereas man's will is not free, but is in bondage to his nature, whether that be a sinful nature inherited from Adam, or a new nature given by Christ in the second birth, resulting in a faith in Christ which cannot stop believing in Him. Likewise, natural man is bound in that he cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned. Natural man is spiritually dead and therefore cannot choose Christ. This is one reason why it is a false gospel to preach that human will makes God's promises effectual.
As for the regenerated children of God, there is a conflict in them, carrying about the body of this death, the flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit agains the flesh, so they cannot do all the things that they wish.
So, God's will is indeed free, but man's will is not. The main argument in the Bible is that man is a captive of the devil to do his will, unless/until Christ makes alive by His power, of His grace and not of man's will at all. In matters of will, this is the only relevant application to pursue. Does man have a free will to choose Christ? The Biblical answer is an emphatic No! All other talk about will is vanity.
As for the regenerated children of God, there is a conflict in them, carrying about the body of this death, the flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit agains the flesh, so they cannot do all the things that they wish.
So, God's will is indeed free, but man's will is not. The main argument in the Bible is that man is a captive of the devil to do his will, unless/until Christ makes alive by His power, of His grace and not of man's will at all. In matters of will, this is the only relevant application to pursue. Does man have a free will to choose Christ? The Biblical answer is an emphatic No! All other talk about will is vanity.
IsaiahX
Ape That Loves
At least in my opinion, God subjects the universe to suffering, not because he is weak or irresponsible, but for the sole sake of deliverance. God, who views all things from an eternal perspective, knows that salvation is more enjoyable in the face of adversity. I do not know what your beliefs are about the final state of the damned, but as a universalist, I find that God can be good, omnipotent, and omniscient while allowing evil.
Skwim
Veteran Member
No, that wasn't your point. Your point was quite simple:
"The point is that God, as an infinite and transcendant being, does not always expirience emotions in the same way we do."
And not to be picky, but experiencing emotions, which is what you were talking about, are not thoughts, the subject of Isaiah 55:8-9
8 The Lord says, “My thoughts are not like yours.
Your ways are not like mine.
9 Just as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so my ways are higher than your ways,
and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts.
.
Your ways are not like mine.
9 Just as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so my ways are higher than your ways,
and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts.
.
Sunstone,
When you are Almighty you can do anything you want to do. Even though God has freewill He still abides by His sayings and promises. Also God does not obey man’s laws, because He is The Spirit, and He has said that He will have mercy on anyone He wants to. This is because God can see the hearts and what a man truely is, so sometimes, He May forgive the breaking of Laws
Whenever He sees it is good to do, as He did with David.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
God is omnipotent, all powerful, but even so, he also has a specific character. Therefore, though he has the power to do anything, he cannot chose to do something contrary to his character.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
Fair enough...but how do you understand this "more enjoyable...adversity"?
This might be much closer to my own position, but I think that you might find yourself on the fringe for traditional Christian belief when you make this suggestion.
To me, this introduces a sort of Taoist notion of the balance of opposites implicitly.
siti
Well-Known Member
Oh! What a tangled web we weave...
No tangled web at all. In general the Bible reflects an ancient anthropomorphic view of God, but nonetheless there are reasonable interpretation of some citations as you offered.
siti
Well-Known Member
Yes - so the Bible gives an out of date and inaccurate account of God...why would that be if it was the very inspired word of God through one of his "Manifestations" - I mean you can't get it more wrong than to attribute anthropomorphic characteristics when God is entirely other than that - can you? So did God "lie"? Or was he just mistaken about himself? Either way, how can we trust what he says? And how can we possibly know whether or not he has "free-will" if we can't even tell whether he is telling the truth or not when he reveals things?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Bible was not inspired by any of the Manifestations of God. It was purportedly inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was written by men and a lot happened in between inspiration and recording.
The view that the Bible was an inspired literal written word of God is the irrational view of fundamentalist Christians. From the view of the Baha'i view scripture is written by humans, contains the cultural view of God at the times, and do contain inspired Revelation concerning spiritual principles and teachings. The Pentateuch has no known author, and is a cultural compilation using more ancient writings and edited and compiled in the context of Hebrew culture, and beliefs.
The concept of Progressive Revelation is the key where scripture over time is not absolute in any from even the Baha'i writings. They are progressive in their knowledge and spiritual attributes as humanity matures from the primitive Neolithic to the present more mature potential spiritual nature,
Well, from the Baha'i view scripture of religions is not literally God speaking. It is the human view of God at the times they were written. You cannot trust anything that claims 'God is directly speaking' to humanity. Manifestations of God reveal spiritual attributes and teachings as inspired Revelation. If you look at your reference from Titus this is most definitely God speaking. It is letters from the apostles/church fathers to the followers. If you will notice in the scriptures, Jesus Christ never made such a statement.
What the evangelical Christians and others who believe that the Bible is literally God's word totally fail to consider is the very human nature of the history of the scriptures edited and redacted over time with fallible human influence.
Someone represents the Church Fathers that selected edited and redacted the scripture of the New Testament. The Pentateuch was compiled, edited and redacted ~600-500 BCE from a foundation of Hebrew/Canaanite tribal beliefs and myths using more ancient cuneiform tablets, and adding their own traditional history and literature.
A very fallible human history of scripture based on the evidence.