Does Free Will Exist?

[BucephalusBB]

What if I exercise my free will to reincarnate. :ignore:

Well, I am guessing this view and reincarnation don't mix together :cover:

 

[ikitikitembo]

If free will did not exist, then Religious Forums would not exist!

...please explain...???

The definition of Determined is, "decision upon, as by an authority." Therefore there is a higher authority who has given life and given choice and who has determined that this divinely inspired choice will ultimately be up to the individual.

The determining "authority" doesn't have to be some conscious being/character/essence/individual/etc. When I say determined I'm not referring to a God at all, nor am I excluding him. This is simply what I can observe with my own eyes at the macro level, and what I understand is going on on the micro level.

Our Creator has so deemed that we will not be subject to His authority,...no...we will be subject to our own decisions and will be allowed to choose our path, for the good of our brothers and sisters or for their detriment, due to our greed and selfishness!
God is not a God of instilling His way upon the masses. On the contrary, God opens Himself daily and offers Himself daily in the most Holy Eucharist, (the Body nd Blood of Christ). It is as if He places His great hand before His eyes and says, " I know your faults, but beloved, I extend myself once again to you in hopes that this time you will acknowledge me, in the hope that you will feel my loving touch this time and respond to me." God is all forgiving. We are one with Him, in our esssence. He offers Himself and His teachings to us every day, every moment. It is up to us to acknowledge His love for us and with free will, decide to follow Him.

You seem to be beating around the bush. Is there anything else besides a book that has convinced you we have free will?

Think about your every day actions and reactions to certain situations. Who decides your reactions? Who tells you to curse someone for cutting you off in traffic? Who directs you to be extremely ticked off at Aunt or Uncle or friend so and so, at any given time? No person on this earth directs you or me. This is our free will to judge our brothers and sisters and relatives at any point in time.
Let's face the fact beloved, free will does exist, we just don't have the ----- to admit it or take the responsiblility for it. It has been determined that we will be responsible for our own actions. We would much prefer to point a finger at another being or God, rather than face the fact that we hold the key to our life's journey, by our free will decisions. God knows our future from before the day we are born, but He sees what might be, and what might not be. He hopes the best for us, but He will never force His Way upon us. So He waits to see what our free will, that He has given to us, will produce. Free will is a gift and a grace that has been given to us to use wisely. What do you choose? As for me, I chose to follow God, who loves me unconditionally, and who offers me the opportunity to reconcile with Him every day. He knows our potential, but He waits upon our choice, with our God given free will!

Once again you seem to be misunderstanding. I'm not putting the authority on another being. The authority is in the hands of natural processes. It 's like this: Picture rolling a dice. The outcome may appear random, but it's actually the product of a collection of determining factors working together to produce the final result. The texture of the dice, the texture of the surface you roll it on, the force exerted on the dice, air resistence, etc. When these factors and plenty of others come together you end up getting the outcome (1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6). I realize we are different in that we possess consciousness. But it's all the same. We are part of the same cause-effect system. Also, on a technical level, we aren't responsible for our actions. There is no "we" or "us" or "soul" besides the interactions between organic molecules we are made up of. Yet if someone were to tell me, "Well, you are responsible for going to prison, no one forced you to do what you did" I would agree on a non-technical level. I'm not arguing people aren't responsible for their actions, and I don't blame anything or anyone for the things that happen to me. Yet when it comes down to it, no one technically is. I believe there is no "one" or "we" or "soul". Why don't I believe? Well the real question is why should I believe? I don't believe in something unless there is something to convince me so. I certainly leave the possibility open. But why should I suddenly take a leap of faith into something I've never experienced or shown reason for? Do you believe someone is trying to kill you right now? Probably not because nothing convinces you. I'm going to assume you leave the possibility open though. Is there any insight you could provide me into the evidence for the existence of a soul? Perhaps you can convince me, which would delight me, because a soul most likely means free will, and free will is very very good news.

 

[ikitikitembo]

Sorry, I had not seen your questions addressed to me.

The soul is the real 'me' (the one that lives forever, and will return to God one day). The function of my soul is to try to achive perfection. Each time I use a physical body to live my life on earth, I must not have acvess to the memories of all my incarnations; that would be a bit like taking my text books into an exam.

I see. Well, now that I have your definition...could you provide me with the insight that convinces you they exist?

That's an awfully long winded way of saying that I had no choice in taking my toaster to the electrical repair shop, because it had stopped toasting. Forgive me my frivolity.
Of course we have 'tendencies', of course it is possible to predict how we will react to a certain situation, but 100% accuracy? NO. Therefore, we do have free will.

Yes part of our actions are due to the circumstances themselves, but more importantly, they are due to our moods and personalities. Do moods and personalities come from nowhere? I don't know about you but I don't believe so. Moods and personalities are determined, partly by things I've already mentioned in this post, partly by things I haven't.

I had the free will to either have the toaster fixed, or to go and buy a new one; and 'no' that is not governed by my ability to buy a new one..........

Oh. I'm confused, could you explain why you think you have the free will? Couldn't agree with you more as far as your second clause. No single factor such as your ability to do so determines the things you do. As Bouncing Ball said...its everything. All factors come together to produce outcome.

 

[Willamena]

Not true.... as the ancients explained: Destiny is that you cannot change and Fate is that which you can. For example (in an easy explanation):
It is your Destiny to die.
How you get there is by your freewill, which only effects your fates.

You can't change the end result of everything, but you can "bob and weave" your way around the middle. Just like with time, but that is another topic.

Awesome! Needs a bit more detail, though. Destiny involves us in the outcome, so it is the one we have control over. We determine our destiny. Fate is something we have no control over. It is our fate to die. It is our destiny to determine how we get there by free will: that destiny is something we cannot change. And yes, our actions affect circumstances, and can change our fate.

Well done.

 

[Willamena]

Your post is so long, so I will address just particular parts of it.

In my opinion, everything that happens in this universe has a cause, or, it is determined by something (thus, I am a Determinist)... Now, the things that they have identified as "random", we really dont know if they are truly "random". They are just random to us, because we haven't figured their deterministic factors. So we can say that they are "unpredictable" (meaning humans haven't discovered why these things do the things they do, therefore we are not able to predict how they occur), but we don't truly know that they are random (there's a difference between randomness and unpredictability).

Randomness is deliberate unpredictability. No matter that we build the biggest, brightest machine that can predict an outcome, as long as we ourselves cannot predict an outcome without the machine it is a random outcome.

"Pick a card, any card." The deck has been shuffled, the order of the deck is fixed. Its order has been determined by circumstances. When a man picks a face-down card, he doesn't know what the outcome will be because he does not know that order. That is what makes it random: leaving the outcome to circumstances.

So I believe that everything is determined, it's just that we haven't discovered ALL of the causes (we've certainly done a good job in narrowing them down though). I also believe, that if we live in a wholly deterministic universe, then nothing is free to do anything. Freedom is incompatible with determinism (thus, I'm a Determinist/Incompatiblist; there are also "compatablists" who believe that the two can exist with one another. To me that is absurd, but whatever)...

We might be able to pinpoint some of the cause-effect relationships, but life is so complex we could never comprehend the series of causes which leads up to a single event. We are directly/indirectly affected by so many things in life...heredity, stimuli (environment), natural chemical balances/imbalances in our brains, etc, etc, etc. There are too many to list. Each choice we make is preceded with a lifetime of experiences, memories, and things we inherit at birth. Once the zygote is formed, every move it makes, in combination with what it has genetically, and what it's exposed to will set up a chain of events which will ultimately determine who that person is, how they react to things, and where they end up. Think of anything that happens to anyone, any thought they think, any action they take, and I guarantee it is caused by a combination of things they've have experienced, done, or triats they have been given.

All true. But free will is not incompatible with determinism as you describe it here, because you have described "stuff that happens to us" (our circumstances) and free will is rather "us doing stuff". Determinism is the chain of events; free will is the perspective from one of those links, a conscious one.

You have painted a totally objective picture of the circumstances that lead to our making choices. That picture, the objective picture, includes events, experiences, memories, feelings, traits --all those circumstances that led to an inevitable outcome. That is the objective picture, where the outcome, like the deck of cards placed face down, is fixed. If we knew the order of the deck, we would know exactly what face-down card is selected.

When you describe things objectively, they will always lead to an inevitable outcome. That is why we created an objective perspective, to give us such descriptions.

But the objective picture is not our picture; it is not the picture that we, as individuals, see. The objective picture ignores the subject's picture. Subjectively, the individual is the one who acts of will to select a card. Subjectively, for him, things like drawing a random exist. Objectively, they don't. Objectively, circumstances work to bring him to this outcome.

Everything leads back to a beginning, which is ultimately the beginning of the universe. Perhaps the Big Bang, perhaps formation by a God, perhaps something entirely different. Whatever it is I do know that that one event or set of events determined everything that would come after it. Once it starts, everything will be determined. Beginning is the fate, the destiny of our lives. The idea of free will is nice, and brings people comfort, but it just doesn't make sense. Should we set the truth aside in order to believe in something that makes us more secure? Or should we be honest, and strong enough to look truth in the face, no matter what it pertains to?

The truth need not be set aside in order to encompass free will. All it takes is looking at the whole picture, instead of limiting yourself to the objective picture.

What do you think? Do you believe in a deterministic universe? If so, do you think it would be compatible with free will? If not, could you provide an example of something that is not determined by anything? Also, will you at least agree that we are heavily heavily influenced?

I believe in a deterministic universe. I also believe in me. The universe, with all its circumstances, doesn't have my will. I do.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Randomness is deliberate unpredictability. No matter that we build the biggest, brightest machine that can predict an outcome, as long as we ourselves cannot predict an outcome without the machine it is a random outcome.

I disagree. If we don't know the outcome but do know that computers can calculate it, then it is fixed and tht doesn't change the fact. If I would know how to calculate it and you do not, doesn't mean it's random in your case and it's not in mine. It means it is fixed, only you don't know..

"Pick a card, any card." The deck has been shuffled, the order of the deck is fixed. Its order has been determined by circumstances. When a man picks a face-down card, he doesn't know what the outcome will be because he does not know that order. That is what makes it random: leaving the outcome to circumstances.

You say it yourself that it is fixed and then it isn't? See reply above.

 

[Willamena]

I disagree. If we don't know the outcome but do know that computers can calculate it, then it is fixed and tht doesn't change the fact. If I would know how to calculate it and you do not, doesn't mean it's random in your case and it's not in mine. It means it is fixed, only you don't know..

You say it yourself that it is fixed and then it isn't? See reply above.

I never said that the order is not fixed. In fact, I said it's never not fixed when you look at it objectively. In other words, "It means it is fixed when you look at it objectively, only you can't know (what that order is, because you look at it subjectively)..."

 

[BucephalusBB]

I never said that the order is not fixed. In fact, I said it's never not fixed when you look at it objectively. In other words, "It means it is fixed when you look at it objectively, only you can't know (what that order is, because you look at it subjectively)..."

Exactly. Now what we are saying here is that we do not need to know the fixed things, and we also might never know it exactly, only it is there! It is fixed, wether we know it or not..

 

[Willamena]

Exactly. Now what we are saying here is that we do not need to know the fixed things, and we also might never know it exactly, only it is there! It is fixed, wether we know it or not..

The order of the cards is fixed, but the outcome of the draw isn't. Just so.

 

[BucephalusBB]

The order of the cards is fixed, but the outcome of the draw isn't. Just so.

Only because you say we don't know where the card is so we pick another one every time. All we say is that even the pick is fixed, only we don't know just as the order of the cards. I go with my hand over the 4th card, back top the 2nd, forth to the 5th again and pick that card. All was fixed..

 

[Willamena]

Only because you say we don't know where the card is so we pick another one every time.

Right, it's because the person who draws the card cannot say what the next card is that the outcome for him is not fixed.

"The order of the cards" is fixed; there is no person in that picture. "The outcome of the draw" is not fixed, because there is a person in the picture doing the drawing; as there is now a consciousness involved, there are two perspectives at work, where in the previous picture there was only one --the objective one.

All we say is that even the pick is fixed, only we don't know just as the order of the cards. I go with my hand over the 4th card, back top the 2nd, forth to the 5th again and pick that card. All was fixed..

The outcome is what card turns up. Objectively, from a perspective where the order of the deck is known to posterity, the card chosen is 'known' in its order before it is turned face up by the person doing the picking. Subjectively, from the perspective of the person doing the picking (using free will), it is not known. But then, he's not posterity.

His actions as you've objectively described them contain no randomness. It's the "only we don't know" part that is randomness.

 

[Willamena]

Exactly. Now what we are saying here is that we do not need to know the fixed things, and we also might never know it exactly, only it is there! It is fixed, wether we know it or not..

Randomness is the fellow doing the picking not knowing what the next card will be. He has left the outcome of the pick (which card turns up) to circumstances (chance) to determine.

The fixed things objectively viewed ("only it is there!") are not dependent upon our perspective, but randomness is, and free will is.

To say that the objective view demonstrates that there is no free will is ...stacking the deck (both figuratively and literally).

 

[michel]

I see. Well, now that I have your definition...could you provide me with the insight that convinces you they exist?.

Well, my physical body exists (unless you believe in solipsism). The soul? I couldn't give you what you would be prepared to recognise as any sort of proof, but, as far as I am concerned, I have looked at my physical body from another perspective.

Yes part of our actions are due to the circumstances themselves, but more importantly, they are due to our moods and personalities. Do moods and personalities come from nowhere? I don't know about you but I don't believe so. Moods and personalities are determined, partly by things I've already mentioned in this post, partly by things I haven't.

I agree that there is a large degree of 'forecastable reaction' to all our actions. I had this exact same conversation with Jayhawker Soul; all that I can say is that I have, at times, reacted to something in a totally 'unlike me' manner.

Being an extremely shy person, I attended an audition once for an amateur operatic company, and was accepted. If that wasn't enough to put me off, a few years ago, I agreed to do amateur plays with a local theatre production company. Just recently, I have been puting myself in the position of taking exams (which leave me shaking and trembling with anxiety0, because I had such bad experiences as a child.

Why should I have chosen the hard way out ?

Oh. I'm confused, could you explain why you think you have the free will? Couldn't agree with you more as far as your second clause. No single factor such as your ability to do so determines the things you do. As Bouncing Ball said...its everything. All factors come together to produce outcome.

I believe I do have the free will, because (to stick with the present example), I have the ability to fix the toaster; on some occasions, I think "Heck, I can save myself some time and trouble by buying a new one", and I do so; other times, I will fix it.

When I walk down the street, and see a wallet lying around, I pick it up. Now I do know that I cannot put it in my pocket and use the money for myself, and that thought even crosses my mind. I would be saving myself all the trouble of saying "Would the owner of the wallet please form an orderly queue here?". At that moment, I have temptation; temptation doesn't occur out of totally predictable scenarios.

 

[Kungfuzed]

I beleve that randomness is an illusion created by our inability to observe and calculate every single variable involved. In fact, chaos is just an illusion as well. Every particle adheres to it properties and the laws of nature. Every particle is deterministic in its behaviour when observed individually. The more particles you add to the mix the more difficult it is to observe and caclulate their reactions to each other. This isn't just true for particles, but for everything, including our neurons. If our neurons are deterministic, then our thoughts and actions are as well. Those limits of observation and calculation are set by technology, and technology is speeding up every day.

 

[mr.guy]

Every particle is deterministic in its behaviour when observed individually.

What about sub-atomic particles?

 

[Kungfuzed]

What about sub-atomic particles?

I don't know. Are atomic particles made of sub-atomic particles? If they are, then they are at least deterministic when working together as an atom. Light waves and electromagnetism seem to behave themselves according to their laws. Electricity seems to be adding my posts to the server exactly as I type them. Are there any sub-atomic particles that don't behave well that could throw off our calculations?

 

[mr.guy]

Brownian Motion

 

[Kungfuzed]

Brownian Motion

I read the article. As I explained earlier, it's our inability to observe and calculate that creates the illusion of randomness. It is also true in Brownian Motion.

 

[Mavrikmind]

I had a couple of paragraphs typed out but in the end I just confused myself lol. Anyway, I think a choice is a choice, I think that is constant, I don't think predtermination is real. I think we may percieve it, but that still does not make it real. The randomness of freckles on a face is evidence of that.
really I don't know I'm just making an argument. Maybe it's a combination of both. I've noticed that when you have two sides the truth is somewhere in between.
If I just made myself look stupid I appologize, I don't delve into philosphy that much and I just wanted to stretch my brain a bit lol * goes back to reading his comic book