Documentary Hypothesis

[sayak83]

What do you think about it?

Its mostly true and has very good evidence for it.

 

[Earthling]

Its mostly true and has very good evidence for it.

Such as?

 

[RabbiO]

Thanks for your thoughts. Appreciate it.

I had a reason for asking the question. To be frank, your query is not the first time a Muslim has asked about the DH. Invariably it has turned out that there is an agenda tied to the inquiry - the promotion of the Quran as unsullied and perfect revelation and the denigration of Torah as corrupted revelation, twisted with human additions and subtractions.

I wears simply trying to ascertain if that was your motivation or whether you had another purpose.

 

[shunyadragon]

So, then, your contention is that for thousands of years, scrolls prior to those found in the Dead Sea area, couldn't have existed because we haven't found them, therefore, the Bible was written some time during the period of those extant manuscripts?

Your committing the fallacy of the 'argument from ignorance.' There is absolutely no evidence for your claim, zero, zip, nada, negatory. NOT anything in Hebrew or primitive Canaanite Hebrew before ~1000 BCE, In fact there is abundant evidence in the contrary as to the evolution and source of the Pentateuch.

You need to provide the positive argument from actual evidence to support your claim. Based on the actual verifiable evidence the Pentateuch was compiled after ~700 BCE.

Still waiting . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

Such as?

Any documents in Hebrew that can date the Pentateuch as you claimed.

 

[shunyadragon]

And Shakespeare may have been the author of the plays attributed to him.

It is possible that Shakespeare may not have written the plays with his name. He lacked the education necessary for the material found in the plays ,a alternate authors with the background needed

 

[Earthling]

Any documents in Hebrew that can date the Pentateuch as you claimed.

What claim?

 

[Earthling]

Your committing the fallacy of the 'argument from ignorance.' There is absolutely no evidence for your claim, zero, zip, nada, negatory. NOT anything in Hebrew or primitive Canaanite Hebrew before ~1000 BCE, In fact there is abundant evidence in the contrary as to the evolution and source of the Pentateuch.

You need to provide the positive argument from actual evidence to support your claim. Based on the actual verifiable evidence the Pentateuch was compiled after ~700 BCE.

Still waiting . . .

Look. You read stupid **** somewhere then regurgitate it without even a thought. You're the one who, in one of my first discussions on this very topic when I came here, gave a link to support your claim and when it was pointed out to you that there was nothing there remotely capable of doing so you responded by saying you posted it in the hopes that there would be something there in the future.

I can dance around in circles with you forever and never get anywhere. You're making the claim that there is any merit to the documentary theory - the most recent version of it having replaced the even more nonsensical one of the past. I'm going to make you work for it.

The proposition that the Hebrew language is too recent to have produced the Pentateuch is bad conjecture, but let's put that on hold for now, and tell me what evidence there is of it having been compiled after 700 B.C.E.

 

[shunyadragon]

The proposition that the Hebrew language is too recent to have produced the Pentateuch is bad conjecture, but let's put that on hold for now, and tell me what evidence there is of it having been compiled after 700 B.C.E.

The evidence is clear and specific. All known documents are found after that date. Absolutely no documents found before that date,

 

[shunyadragon]

What claim?

Written by Moses or those associated with Moses first person authors of the Torah..

If this is not your claim be specific as to what your claim is.

 

[Earthling]

The evidence is clear and specific. All known documents are found after that date. Absolutely no documents found before that date,

So, no documents existed before then? Because they haven't been found?

 

[Earthling]

Written by Moses or those associated with Moses first person authors of the Torah..

If this is not your claim be specific as to what your claim is.

My only claim as far as this thread goes is that the documentary theory is bull****.

 

[sayak83]

Such as?

camel caravan route described in the Joseph story began at 600 BCE. Plenty of archaeological and historical evidence for this claim.

 

[Earthling]

camel caravan route described in the Joseph story began at 600 BCE. Plenty of archaeological and historical evidence for this claim.

So, again, you operate on the contention that camels couldn't have been incorporated as the text shows because there isn't evidence of their commonality until the period in question. And this doesn't seem conjectural to you?

 

[sayak83]

So, again, you operate on the contention that camels couldn't have been incorporated as the text shows because there isn't evidence of their commonality until the period in question. And this doesn't seem conjectural to you?

No it is not all conjectural. Camel's are not found at all in the older strata of the cities and settlements of Israel-Palestine-Syria. All others animals are found in copious quantities. Camels begin to appear in the early 9th century BC and increases greatly in quantity from 7th century onwards when the incense trade route begins.We can trace the introduction of domesticated camel in very accurate detail based on accurate dating of the remains. Nothing here is conjecture.
Finding Israel's first camels: Archaeologists pinpoint the date when domesticated camels arrived in Israel

Also, camels were first domesticated in south-east coast of Arabian peninsula at around 1000 BCE (+- 100 years)
Origin of dromedary camel domestication discovered

Full paper here
Ancient and modern DNA reveal dynamics of domestication and cross-continental dispersal of the dromedary

The domestication of the dromedary happened in the late second millennium BCE as deduced from: (i) diachronic osteometric analysis illustrating a significant decrease in bone size in remains dating to the very end of the second or beginning of the first millennium BCE (ca. 1,100–800 BCE) (7⇓⇓⇓⇓–12); (ii) changes in the cultural context, i.e., increased representation of dromedary bones in settlement refuse vs. large concentrations in sites without architecture, e.g., site of Al-Sufouh, United Arab Emirates (UAE); and (iii) figurines and representations of indubitably domesticated dromedaries (13).

The absence of genetic structure between WNAF and NAP (ϕST = 0.006; P < 0.001; FST = −0.002; P > 0.05) points to an extensive exchange of dromedaries introduced into northeastern Africa from the Arabian Peninsula via the Sinai (SI Appendix, Fig. S4), possibly starting in the early first millennium BCE (800 BCE )and intensifying in the Ptolemaic period (1, 17).


Thus both archaelogical and genetic data support the conclusion that domesticated camels came into the Syria-Palestine region after 9th century BCE, after it was domesticated at 10th century BCE.

I accept the evidence based conclusions of science over mythological stories from religious books. Tell me why I should not?

 

[Earthling]

No it is not all conjectural. Camel's are not found at all in the older strata of the cities and settlements of Israel-Palestine-Syria. All others animals are found in copious quantities. Camels begin to appear in the early 9th century BC and increases greatly in quantity from 7th century onwards when the incense trade route begins.We can trace the introduction of domesticated camel in very accurate detail based on accurate dating of the remains. Nothing here is conjecture.
Finding Israel's first camels: Archaeologists pinpoint the date when domesticated camels arrived in Israel

Also, camels were first domesticated in south-east coast of Arabian peninsula at around 1000 BCE (+- 100 years)
Origin of dromedary camel domestication discovered

Full paper here
Ancient and modern DNA reveal dynamics of domestication and cross-continental dispersal of the dromedary

The domestication of the dromedary happened in the late second millennium BCE as deduced from: (i) diachronic osteometric analysis illustrating a significant decrease in bone size in remains dating to the very end of the second or beginning of the first millennium BCE (ca. 1,100–800 BCE) (7⇓⇓⇓⇓–12); (ii) changes in the cultural context, i.e., increased representation of dromedary bones in settlement refuse vs. large concentrations in sites without architecture, e.g., site of Al-Sufouh, United Arab Emirates (UAE); and (iii) figurines and representations of indubitably domesticated dromedaries (13).

The absence of genetic structure between WNAF and NAP (ϕST = 0.006; P < 0.001; FST = −0.002; P > 0.05) points to an extensive exchange of dromedaries introduced into northeastern Africa from the Arabian Peninsula via the Sinai (SI Appendix, Fig. S4), possibly starting in the early first millennium BCE (800 BCE )and intensifying in the Ptolemaic period (1, 17).


Thus both archaelogical and genetic data support the conclusion that domesticated camels came into the Syria-Palestine region after 9th century BCE, after it was domesticated at 10th century BCE.

I accept the evidence based conclusions of science over mythological stories from religious books. Tell me why I should not?

It is conjecture. That you don't understand that is remarkable! This, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of how stupid educated people can be. The Bible says that there were camels, the conjecture of modern day scholars disagree because they haven't found any evidence of being possible that a relatively small number of them were being used before their evidence can demonstrate otherwise.

 

[Firedragon-2]

I had a reason for asking the question. To be frank, your query is not the first time a Muslim has asked about the DH. Invariably it has turned out that there is an agenda tied to the inquiry - the promotion of the Quran as unsullied and perfect revelation and the denigration of Torah as corrupted revelation, twisted with human additions and subtractions.

I wears simply trying to ascertain if that was your motivation or whether you had another purpose.

I would say 'don't make assumptions bro'.

This forum has shown me a lot of people with good knowledge. But also a lot of people who pretend. There are also some people who may not have studied the Bible but have very good ideas and suggestions because they are simply intelligent. Sometimes its an excellent idea to ask a kid about a complex idea to receive a completely fresh perspective.

Thats the motive. If we keep profiling each other due to religious or non-religious views and making assumptions by default we should check ourselves mate.

Peace.

 

[Firedragon-2]

My only claim as far as this thread goes is that the documentary theory is bull****.

May I ask why you think this?

 

[sayak83]

It is conjecture. That you don't understand that is remarkable! This, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of how stupid educated people can be. The Bible says that there were camels, the conjecture of modern day scholars disagree because they haven't found any evidence of being possible that a relatively small number of them were being used before their evidence can demonstrate otherwise.

As I said in another place to another person, people who are determined to remain deluded for ideological reasons can't be shown the truth. The desire must come from within, and you do not have it.

 

[Earthling]

What do you think about it?

The documentary theory is an example of how educated people can be really stupid. There are only two logical reasons to promote the theory. 1. You want to believe it and 2. You don't want to look stupid by rejecting the travesty of academia.

The current state of which is the supposition that Hebrew didn't exist until 700 B.C.E. because they don't have any evidence. Ah, there's that word so often overestimated by the educated. So. The 813 years of history prior to that, the Jews themselves, the nation of Israel, the events recorded . . . didn't happen. They were invented in 700 B.C.E. By . . . someone. I guess that leaves the authenticity of the documentary theory's own estimations prior to it's latest incarnation, namely, P, the priestly class that wrote some of it, and E, elohim the writer who used the term which couldn't have existed prior to that but suddenly came into existence somewhere around 700 B.C.E. as folly. Apparently, these people gathered in exile in Babylon, the events leading up to their being there most assuredly in question now, since they allegedly didn't transpire, invented a language and 813 years of history, including the creation of the universe and the global flood, which were written about in other languages prior to the 1513 B.C.E. when Moses didn't write the Pentateuch.

And I'm an antisemitic because I don't believe six million could have been gassed in concentration camps.

God, people are stupid.