1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

doctrine

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by jonjohnrob11, May 5, 2004.

  1. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    what is the perfect church, the one who has never changed it's doctrines? the one who got it right the first time, evidently as God doesn't change, but man does, imlplying that real truth never changes as God is truth. i found the perfect church, the only one that hasn't changed it's doctrines. have u?
     
  2. 3bgeneral

    3bgeneral New Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2004
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have found the right church where doctrine has never changed for over 50 yrs.
    But I can't say that it is a perfect church since people
    make up the church and we certainly
    are not perfect, we are sinners saved by Gods grace.
    Bev
     
  3. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    What churches are you guys talking about that havn't changed doctrines? If by doctrine you mean 'written word', then that is explainable, but interpretation is also doctrine. If you're trying to tell me that your churches have not had any change in their interpretations of their doctrines in over 50 years, that doesn't sound like a very natural process to me.
     
  4. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    And something else that I've been asking everyone: god created you exactly as he wanted you to be, agreed? That means that he created you imperfectly and with sin INTENTIONALLY. How then, is it justified that he should punish you for qualities he bestowed upon you in the first place??
     
  5. littleseal

    littleseal New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    12
    Ratings:
    +0
    One might assume he knows the intentions of God but might I ask If we knew his intentions then we should be infallable just as he is? Should we give ourselves the dignity to proclaim what is right in terms of judgement when our very discernment is limited to our knowledge and environment.We were created in his image and thus have free will and choice but it must be based upon the will of the object that is being reflected,as such It is critical that we understand that our choice of neglect is our fault and not gods, he being merciful and just in all things.
     
  6. yexusbeliever

    yexusbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +1
    I help you rejoice with your joy, brother! :clap:

    I know that there is no perfect church to everyone, but when you find that perfect church to you; it is all perfect! Great!
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    I really hope that god writes another book, only this time explaining his amazingly brilliant strategies for staying on top. I mean, the guy has himself set up, so that he can do whatever the hell he wants, and if it turns out bad, his barbies'll blame it on themselves. However if the outome is good, he gets all the credit! Jesus christ (no pun intended) talk about genius!

    I assume you believe that god has a plan for us all, and that he is omniscient. How then do we have free will? If god already knows what you are going to do, how is it a choice? More so, if he even went as far as to make a plan for your life, then you're really screwed. How can you expect to deviate from THE PLAN? (ya just gotta put it in all caps, :)
     
  8. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    ***A gentle reminder from your friendly neighbor moderator***

    There will be no debating in any of the seperate religion forums. These forums are for learning about the individual religions.

    If you wish to debate a certain religion or issue take it to the general discussion/debate/or off-topic sections.

    Carry on...
     
  9. yexusbeliever

    yexusbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +1
    Hmm...I have been reading the Bible for so long and I never encountered that God created us to be sinful.

    Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
    Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
    Gen 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

    Please reread verse 31. "It was very good." This certainly mean that God did not create us to be sinful. Because He originally created mankind to be good.

    And you may say that it is after the fall of mankind that they become sinful. Okay, it is true that they become sinful after the fall.

    Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
    Gen 3:10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
    Gen 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
    Gen 3:12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."
    Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
    Gen 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;
    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
    Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
    Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
    Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
    Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

    Please read this whole passage. You can see that Adam and Eve confess to God that they did it themselves to be fallen into the trap of Satan. They even confess that God warned them not to eat the fruit from that tree. And their disobedience cause the fall of mankind.

    Supporting for that is:

    Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

    And you may ask how is that we sin?

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
    Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
    Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
    Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.

    Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
    Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
    Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
    Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
    Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    That passage basically speaks for the nature of the fallen mankind. And as said, "God gave them over to a depraved mind" since they are disobedient. This means that He allow people to sin, yet He did not create sin. Because sin is created by us, people.

    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

    Therefore, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

    Eternal life is found in Jesus Christ who frees those who turn to Him in repentence for their sin against God.
     
  10. yexusbeliever

    yexusbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +1
    I see. You are right and we should respect the rules here. Okay. No debate.
     
  11. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    018, u have many years to discern the truth left. i have quite a few myself and will never know completely all truth unless God sees fit to bestow it upon me. my church was founded by jesus and not man like luther and campbell, amongst the other orthodox and protestant one's. my church hass 2000 years of official written doctrine that has never changed since it was founded by our savior.

    u r born with the sin or your parents and indirectly their ancestors, this is called original sin and is washed clean by baptism of water and desire. once baptised, u are cleansed of original and personal sin. after that u have to be absolved by the Holy Spirit, who was sent amongst us for the forgiveness of sins. when u exit the sacrament u r perfect until u sin again; which, the Bible states, even the just man sins seven times a day, such as an impure thought u might dwell on, swearing, etc.
     
  12. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    general, the infallibility of the Pope only applies to written encyclicals, which i assume are proclamations of doctrine. anyway, whichever way he proclaims new doctrine, he is only infallible on faith(what we believe; ie. creeds), morals(what is right and what is wrong), and dogma or the traditions of our church such as the way we celebrate the seven sacraments, in which Jesus is fully present. take a break. love, butch
     
  13. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    interpretations of the Bible differ. doctrines only differ from church to church. not all passages in the Bible need interpretation, but parables and such need an explanation or interpretation. history and other remarks reflecting the times the Bible was written need background info. for ex.: the eye of a needle in Christ's days had two symbolisms. one is a mountain pass the other the gate to a city in which a camel had to crawl on it's knees to gain entrance into the city. i prefer the second since for a rich man to enter heaven, he must kneel befor the Lord and pray and worship Him. luv, butch
     
  14. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    yexus: i'm sorry, i should say the true church as technically speaking their are two synonomous meanings of church: structure and members. of course the only perfect humans were Our Mother, Mary and Jesus. everyone else has fallen short of the glory of God. St. Faustina only had original sin on her soul.
     
  15. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    018: greetings, but the Bible was written by men who were inspired to write what they did by the Holy Spirit. they were written between 70 and 100 AD. the new testament wasn't compiled into one text until the 400's. even so, only the rich and religious leaders had copies as the printing press wasn't invented until the 1500's; making oral traditon necessary to disseminate info. after the 1500's, book collections grew by leaps and bounds and even poor people could obtain copies.
     
  16. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    018: don't miss the boat! we have a free-wil to choose right from wrong and many other things both spiritual and secular. u r wrangling with the theological concept called eschatology. time as well of all other existence was created by our Lord. the past, present and future are the same in heaven and what heaven we have on earth such as deja vu. thus although we only have the moment to make a choice. if we choose to do good, we are doing God's will, otherwise we aren't. God's will for us to do good is perfect, but we aren't. God know's what choices we will make and we have already made them, so to speak. God's plan for us is the plan that will give us the most enjoyment, which makes him and us happy. it's up to u do decide if u want to accept an opportunity or not. luv, butch
     
  17. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    ceri: sorry i forgot to put it in caps.
     
  18. jonjohnrob11

    jonjohnrob11 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +0
    ceri: sorry i forgot to put in caps. butch
     
  19. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    jonjohnrob11,

    My qualm with this is that there is no proof those men were inspired. It seems to me that that is an assumtion of people trying to justify the 'stories' those men wrote becuase they wanted them to be true.

    Indeed, the rich and religious were the only ones with any motivation to alter those documents to manipulate the common people. How very interesting...
    As far as oral tradition goes, that plays along with what I just said. Besides the fact that oral tradition seems to be a pretty shaky method of preserving anything, the rich and religious, being the only ones with copies, could say to someone, "No, thats not how the story goes. I have a copy, it goes like this." and thus the common people believe.

    we have a free-wil to choose right from wrong and many other things both spiritual and secular....God know's what choices we will make and we have already made them, so to speak.

    I see a HUGE contradiction here. If god already has it planned out what we're going to do, how do we have free will? If we have 'already made our choices' how can that be free will? As for me, I do not believe in free will, but that is for scientific rather than religious reasons.
     
  20. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    What churches are you guys talking about that havn't changed doctrines? If by doctrine you mean 'written word', then that is explainable, but interpretation is also doctrine. If you're trying to tell me that your churches have not had any change in their interpretations of their doctrines in over 50 years, that doesn't sound like a very natural process to me.
     
Loading...