Doctrine and Covenants Section 89 - The Word of Wisdom

[SoyLeche]

If 25 is mentioned, you are going to be talking about one of 2 things - Emma Smith or Music.

76 has a lot, but if it is mentioned by number you are probably going to be talking about the 3 Degrees of Glory

 

[Bishka]

You know your D&C better than I do, then. What are 25 and 76 about?

I was going to say the same thing.

 

[SoyLeche]

I was going to say the same thing.

I'll admit it (and then go to bed). I typed my response, but before submitting it I went to www.lds.org to double check

 

[Katzpur]

I'll admit it (and then go to bed). I typed my response, but before submitting it I went to www.lds.org to double check

Cheater.

 

[Bishka]

Another discussion question...do you think it hurts or helps potential investiagtors and non-members to know that we don't drink coffee and tea, etc.?

 

[FFH]

Then why did Jesus turn the water into wine instead of grape juice?

Doctrine and Covenants 89: 5-6

5- That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6- And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

Pure wine has an alcohol content of less than 1%.

Today's wine's have an alcohol content of 11% - 13%, because of the yeast that is added to convert all of the naturally occurring sugars into alcohol.

 

[Bishka]

Doctrine and Covenants 89: 5-6

5- That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6- And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

Pure wine has an alcohol content of less than 1%.

Today's wine's have an alcohol content of 11% - 13%, because of the yeast that is added to convert all of the naturally occurring sugars into alcohol.

Um, I don't think anyone asked this question.

 

[Katzpur]

Another discussion question...do you think it hurts or helps potential investiagtors and non-members to know that we don't drink coffee and tea, etc.?

Well, an investigator would obviously need to know before he became very seriously interested. One thing I've always thought was kind of odd is the fact that we refuse to baptize someone who doesn't observe the Word of Wisdom, and yet once a person is a member, not keeping the Word of Wisdom is not grounds for excommunication. Does anybody else see the disparity here?

 

[Bishka]

Well, an investigator would obviously need to know before he became very seriously interested. One thing I've always thought was kind of odd is the fact that we refuse to baptize someone who doesn't observe the Word of Wisdom, and yet once a person is a member, not keeping the Word of Wisdom is not grounds for excommunication. Does anybody else see the disparity here?

A bit...it's sort of like the rule up here at BYU-Idaho that you are NOT allowed to wear shorts or capris, yet, you can wear skirts that show off your thighs.

 

[FFH]

Um, I don't think anyone asked this question.

See post #19.

Edit: The point I was trying to make, but didn't make clear, was that the wine Jesus created was pure wine, which is considered non-alcoholic by today's standards.

In South Jordan, where I live, it's illegal for businesses to sell alcohol, period. There are no bars, no liquor stores, no alcohol is sold in restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations, etc., yet, I've seen pure wine sold in the local Smith's grocery store, which was labeled non-alcoholic, and I looked at the label to check out the alcohol content and I remember it read less than 1%, and if I remember right it was something around .3% or .4%, verses the insanely high alcohol content of 12% in today's mass produced wines, which use yeast to convert all the natural sugars into alcohol, which is about 40 times stronger than pure wine, which is what Jesus created, and obviously has no problem with.

I wish I could find the exact alcohol content of pure wine, but it's so low that it's considered non-alcoholic, and is allowed to be sold in South Jordan, which does not allow the sale of any alcohol in any form. Go figure...

Pure wine verses mass produced 12% alcohol wines; would be like eating chocolate verses drinking 10 cups of coffee.

 

[Bishka]

Then why did Jesus turn the water into wine instead of grapejuice?

"God makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate - bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart." (Psalm 104:14-15)

Perhaps Terri, the saints weren't ready for a higher law at that time. If you think about, drinking water didn't happen very much, you usually drank wine (all the time), so of course God would not give that commandment then, it was later on, when the "hearts of conspiring men" would take it and make it an evil thing, that the Lord would issue this suggestion (as it was at the time), and then later on make it a commandment.

 

[nutshell]

Well, an investigator would obviously need to know before he became very seriously interested. One thing I've always thought was kind of odd is the fact that we refuse to baptize someone who doesn't observe the Word of Wisdom, and yet once a person is a member, not keeping the Word of Wisdom is not grounds for excommunication. Does anybody else see the disparity here?

No. There are many things that do not warrant excommunication. What if I don't pay my tithing or I'm struggling with my testimony of the restored priesthood. What if I don't go to Church or pay fast offerings. What if I don't read the Book of Mormon. These are things committed to by investigators before they are baptized, but not doing any one of these things is grounds for excommunication.

 

[Katzpur]

No. There are many things that do not warrant excommunication. What if I don't pay my tithing or I'm struggling with my testimony of the restored priesthood. What if I don't go to Church or pay fast offerings. What if I don't read the Book of Mormon. These are things committed to by investigators before they are baptized, but not doing any one of these things is grounds for excommunication.

I don't know, it just seems kind of funny to me that a person would have to live the Word of Wisdom in order to get baptized but once he'd been baptized, he could stop living it and not be excommunicated.

 

[nutshell]

I don't know, it just seems kind of funny to me that a person would have to live the Word of Wisdom in order to get baptized but once he'd been baptized, he could stop living it and not be excommunicated.

Right. And as I mentioned that's true for many things. What makes the WoW stand out for you?

 

[Katzpur]

Right. And as I mentioned that's true for many things. What makes the WoW stand out for you?

I guess maybe I didn't realize that you had to commit to go to Church, to read the Book of Mormon, etc. before getting baptized. But with respect to tithing, I just never gave it that much thought. Obviously, what you're saying makes sense. I know new converts have to commit to pay their tithing. I guess there really isn't any difference.

 

[SoyLeche]

I guess maybe I didn't realize that you had to commit to go to Church, to read the Book of Mormon, etc. before getting baptized. But with respect to tithing, I just never gave it that much thought. Obviously, what you're saying makes sense. I know new converts have to commit to pay their tithing. I guess there really isn't any difference.

IMO, we have way too many less-active members as it is. You are probably a lot more likely to go inactive if you are not willing to keep the promisses that you will make at baptism. One of those promisses is to keep the commandments, of which the WoW is one.

Another thing I was thinking about is - let's say I'm a missionary teaching an investigator. We teach about the WoW, but then allow them to be baptised while they are still drinking their morning cup of coffee. That starts to look like "well, the WoW is a good idea, but it must not be all that important."

 

[nutshell]

IMO, we have way too many less-active members as it is. You are probably a lot more likely to go inactive if you are not willing to keep the promisses that you will make at baptism. One of those promisses is to keep the commandments, of which the WoW is one.

Another thing I was thinking about is - let's say I'm a missionary teaching an investigator. We teach about the WoW, but then allow them to be baptised while they are still drinking their morning cup of coffee. That starts to look like "well, the WoW is a good idea, but it must not be all that important."

Where does that happen? In my mission no one passed the interview unless they demonstrated that they had "a broken heart and contrite spirit." One way they demonstrated this was keeping the commitments they had made. If someone was still drinking coffee they would not be baptised.

 

[SoyLeche]

Where does that happen? In my mission no one passed the interview unless they demonstrated that they had "a broken heart and contrite spirit." One way they demonstrated this was keeping the commitments they had made. If someone was still drinking coffee they would not be baptised.

I'm giving a "what if" scenario. I guess I wasn't clear. We don't do that, and I'm trying to explain why I think we don't.

 

[nutshell]

I'm giving a "what if" scenario. I guess I wasn't clear. We don't do that, and I'm trying to explain why I think we don't.

OH---gotcha.:beach:

 

[Bishka]

So, if I decided to start drinking coffee -- I coulnd't go to the temple, correct. (I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but just cementing it in my mind)