Do you think Moses existed as a historical figure?

[Zulk-Dharma]

I am interested in your responses. I chose "Maybe. Half historical, half fictional."

If we all agree that the historical Moses as related in the Bible never existed, then we have to account for what (if anything) he is based on (since it was likely oral tradition before it was written down).

You can argue that some ancient Jewish scribes made it all up, which is possible, but some educated guesswork can be made, since it's also possible for it to have a historical core beneath the legends and myths.

 

[Sees]

Chose maybe for some half & half action, however I would much, much rather use mythical than fictional for one of those halves.

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

Why do you believe in Norse mythology, are you from Denmark? There aren't people believing in Norse mythology any more in Scandinavia. There are only Lutheran Christians, secular humanists, Muslims and the Judes live in villages, isolating themselves completely from the integrated Danish society.

 

[Sees]

Why do you believe in Norse mythology, are you from Denmark? There aren't people believing in Norse mythology any more in Scandinavia. There are only Lutheran Christians, secular humanists, Muslims and the Judes live in villages, isolating themselves completely from the integrated Danish society.

How sure are you with how many people in Scandinavia believe in Norse mythology?

Pagan traditions are in the blood and how you live and breath, more than anything. The traditions are alive in every Germanic culture disguised within all aspects - language, holiday celebrations, moral lessons from parent to child, etc. Germanic mythology is what it truly is. Similar to Jewish mythology, Babylonian mythology, etc. Regardless, there are thousands upon thousands who do believe and see but not as many as there should be - in Scandinavia.

They are still shaking off the spell for the most part. The initial thing to do is to denounce religious ideology all together once the natural disconnect with the traditions forced in takes place. It will grow more little by little as an actually acknowledged thing.

When I was in Iraq, Syria, UAE, Kuwait, etc. there were fellow Norse/Germanic mythology believers even there For many it is natural - dreams, visions, etc. before hearing any story or reading any book. You can't put a price on that type of freedom and personal experience.

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

Very interesting. However, there aren't many Heathens in Denmark, most are secular humanists or "secular atheists."

In the capital, there are mostly Muslims. Lutheranism is just the state religion and most are signed as members when they are born, but not many are Christians any longer.

Are you saying it is the natural cycle of life to be a Pagan? I never believed in Thor or Odin, though. However, there was a time in my youth where I started worshiping Krishna, but not any longer.

 

[Sees]

Very interesting. However, there aren't many Heathens in Denmark, most are secular humanists or "secular atheists."

In the capital, there are mostly Muslims. Lutheranism is just the state religion and most are signed as members when they are born, but not many are Christians any longer.

Are you saying it is the natural cycle of life to be a Pagan? I never believed in Thor or Odin, though. However, there was a time in my youth where I started worshiping Krishna, but not any longer.

I don't think it's a natural cycle for everybody to be truly Pagan, but there is that tug to varying degree. It's natural expression of human experiences and connections with differing cultural flavors. From the most mundane to the spiritual and religious. It's integrated with human being.

Scandinavia being the last to go full steam Christian, along with some Baltic folks, made it natural for them to be the quickest to go full steam secular. It's that strong tug. The theology and full breadth of the worldview has a harder time making it's way back in.

I can't take up more of the thread with this stuff though

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

Thanks for your time.

Where were you born? Do you want to know where I was born? Guess.

 

[Nietzsche]

Moses is likely an amalgamation of several different individuals & folk heroes, who slowly coalesced into a single person, probably due to common goals between them.

 

[Sees]

Thanks for your time.

Where were you born? Do you want to know where I was born? Guess.

In the U.S., you were born in Denmark?

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

Yes, I was born in Denmark... inside a train.

 

[rusra02]

I am interested in your responses. I chose "Maybe. Half historical, half fictional."

If we all agree that the historical Moses as related in the Bible never existed, then we have to account for what (if anything) he is based on (since it was likely oral tradition before it was written down).

You can argue that some ancient Jewish scribes made it all up, which is possible, but some educated guesswork can be made, since it's also possible for it to have a historical core beneath the legends and myths.

Jesus Christ and his apostles accepted Moses as an historical man. There is no valid basis to conclude he was not, IMO.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The genuinely historical bits of the bible can be confirmed from other sources, like the Assyrian archives for the kings of Israel and Judah. Egyptian records have no reference to Hebrew slaves or their exodus. The Egyptian writer Manetho and the Jew Josephus associated the Jews in Egypt with the Hyksos. The time would fit, but the Hyksos were not slaves and did not escape — they were expelled. The story of the exodus may well be a folk memory of the expulsion, however, revised to provide a bit of heroic history. Moses himself would then be as real as King Arthur: the story of his life is the classic folk-lore motif "the man born to be king".

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

The only problem accepting that story is that the Hyksos were expelled in the 1500 BCE, my idea is that the Pharaoh of Exodus (and Oppression) was Akhenaten - if we were to set a date.

There are many parts of the Moses story that fits to history, but none fits into one timeline, but rather multiple different ones.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hard to tell. There is probably some artistic license, and quite possibly some fusing of two or more distinct people.

Probably some historical person did exist as a starting point for the mythical Moses, but I always suspect scripture to some degree.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus Christ and his apostles accepted Moses as an historical man. There is no valid basis to conclude he was not, IMO.

Unsubstantiated apologetic rhetoric.

It also goes against all credible education and knowledge.

 

[Sees]

Moses is likely an amalgamation of several different individuals & folk heroes, who slowly coalesced into a single person, probably due to common goals between them.

The genuinely historical bits of the bible can be confirmed from other sources, like the Assyrian archives for the kings of Israel and Judah. Egyptian records have no reference to Hebrew slaves or their exodus. The Egyptian writer Manetho and the Jew Josephus associated the Jews in Egypt with the Hyksos. The time would fit, but the Hyksos were not slaves and did not escape — they were expelled. The story of the exodus may well be a folk memory of the expulsion, however, revised to provide a bit of heroic history. Moses himself would then be as real as King Arthur: the story of his life is the classic folk-lore motif "the man born to be king".

Hard to tell. There is probably some artistic license, and quite possibly some fusing of two or more distinct people.

Probably some historical person did exist as a starting point for the mythical Moses, but I always suspect scripture to some degree.

Good posts...I think most all religious folks fall into these type of categories. It's natural exaggerations, "tall tales", little extra spice here and there that we place around holy men, heroic leaders, etc. Like all myths the details chosen can be a gateway to understanding beyond the actual life lived.

For some it all has to be literal and straight-up, for others it could be representing steps of initiation hidden in plain sight.

 

[outhouse]

I am interested in your responses. I chose "Maybe. Half historical, half fictional."

100% theological written in mythological rhetorical prose.

The problem is no one with credibility is debating the Israelites Canaanite heritage that started after 1200 BC. What is up for debate is who else joined these Semitic people who slowly evolved into Israelites.

We do not see Israelites with any self identity until after 1000 BC. And at this time they used the Canaanite alphabet, pottery, mythology, and deities.


This is the important part of the debate.

To understand the origin of Moses, one needs to understand the culture that wrote about Moses. NOT the REAL ethnogenesis of Israelites, that Israelites did not even know, because they had been wiped out so many times, that had no clue of their own origins.

Israelites were not some orthodox culture of like minded people. During this time they never were. They were multi cultural people with many different beliefs all based on Canaanite deities, El, Asherah, Baal and Yahweh. And possibly even a sun god early on as a minority polytheistic figure.

One needs to understand monotheism in Israelite cultures, and how monotheism was born during the reign of King Josiah, and then understand his monotheistic reforms after 622BC when the mythology surrounding Moses was finished.


In other words, Moses is a theological product that contained mythology by people who wrote 600 years after their formation from displaced Canaanite cultures after the bronze age collapse.

The book Exodus, is a theological piece.

 

[outhouse]

Hard to tell. There is probably some artistic license, and quite possibly some fusing of two or more distinct people.

Probably some historical person did exist as a starting point for the mythical Moses, but I always suspect scripture to some degree.

The sad thing is we cannot pinpoint it to any character with any degree of certainty. The origins of this mythology have so many different possibilities and we just don't know which direction to start to search to try and flesh out a historical core.

That information is lost.

One possibility I tend to try and leave open, is trans Jordan nomadic Semitic peoples that made trips in and out of Egypt during good and bad times, and possible refracted memory.

But even this is so remote as the Exodus mythology is rooted in theology from over 600 years after their true formation that was completely lost to these people, that I cannot with good conscious say that some truth stayed for 600 years in oral tradition.

We see the Exodus as theology from a specific period, not even remotely rooted in the past.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Yes Alhamdulilah he existed historically.

 

[outhouse]

Yes Alhamdulilah he existed historically.

Sources please. Credible historical sources.