Do you think devotion builds strength of character?

[Viraja]

I know you would say 'yes'.

But really, my question asks the following:

Whether devotion can bring about major changes in your outlook, and make you strong, charismatic, outgoing, and smart?

Will devotion help a person reap the same rewards as specific character-building practices (like the toastmasters) do? Have you benefited in your general attitude, demeanor, etc, from devotion?

Please explain your answer, if possible (and interested )

I'm adding a poll to this question.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think dedication and conviction is more important. Devotion can be a symptom of such traits. But if someone commits to following their practices and more importantly practice what they preach (even if they make mistakes) then I think that speaks volumes about their character

 

[Vinayaka]

I think commitment is transferable, and builds will, which can then be used on other areas of life. If you're reliable at worship, then chances are you're reliable at work or parenting. I remember a youth athletics coach I worked with, and knew well. He was the head of a local club, and when parents would suggest that all the training would interfere with the child's schooling, he'd say that it was exactly the opposite. Their diligence in training 5 times a week carried over into their approach to school.

So many skills are transferable. With devotion, it takes steadiness, and commitment ... every day. It builds humility, it builds awareness, it builds concentration.

Not only that, but you get help from inner beings that you've invoked. You can pray for more will, and since that is within your karma, they help.

 

[Viraja]

I think commitment is transferable, and builds will, which can then be used on other areas of life. If you're reliable at worship, then chances are you're reliable at work or parenting. I remember a youth athletics coach I worked with, and knew well. He was the head of a local club, and when parents would suggest that all the training would interfere with the child's schooling, he'd say that it was exactly the opposite. Their diligence in training 5 times a week carried over into their approach to school.

So many skills are transferable. With devotion, it takes steadiness, and commitment ... every day. It builds humility, it builds awareness, it builds concentration.

Not only that, but you get help from inner beings that you've invoked. You can pray for more will, and since that is within your karma, they help.

I agree with the said sentiments.

Although I voted myself 'Unsure', I can find myself at peace following years of moderate devotional practices, in trialsome circumstances. That, plus the 'fear of god' (or you can call it the 'conscience') has made me commit to honesty even when under trials, and certain other moral values such as this can be added as well.

But more specifically, I'm looking for evidence of mantra-power, vibration-power, and potency leading to positive results in terms of character and personality.

I thank you, and @SomeRandom for your replies.

 

[Vinayaka]

I agree with the said sentiments.

Although I voted myself 'Unsure', I can find myself at peace following years of moderate devotional practices, in trialsome circumstances. That, plus the 'fear of god' (or you can call it the 'conscience') has made me commit to honesty even when under trials, and certain other moral values such as this can be added as well.

But more specifically, I'm looking for evidence of mantra-power, vibration-power, and potency leading to positive results in terms of character and personality.

I thank you, and @SomeRandom for your replies.

I have no evidence, only personal testimony. Sorry.

 

[Jainarayan]

As you surmised, my answer at least is yes. I think I have changed mostly for the better. I’m less likely to judge and think ill of people. I tend to not think of things as permanent. Even when I’m in a bad emotional place I know it will pass. When I’m faced with doing something I’m not sure I can or want to do I remember verses from the BG

• All actions in this world, unless done as an offering to God become causes of bondage. Therefore work for the sake of God without attachment.
• Therefore, without being attached to the fruits of activities, one should act as a matter of duty, for by working without attachment one attains the Supreme.
• Therefore, O Arjuna, surrendering all your works unto Me, with full knowledge of Me, without desires for profit, with no claims to proprietorship, and free from lethargy, fight.

 

[Viraja]

As you surmised, my answer at least is yes. I think I have changed mostly for the better. I’m less likely to judge and think ill of people. I tend to not think of things as permanent. Even when I’m in a bad emotional place I know it will pass. When I’m faced with doing something I’m not sure I can or want to do I remember verses from the BG

• All actions in this world, unless done as an offering to God become causes of bondage. Therefore work for the sake of God without attachment.
• Therefore, without being attached to the fruits of activities, one should act as a matter of duty, for by working without attachment one attains the Supreme.
• Therefore, O Arjuna, surrendering all your works unto Me, with full knowledge of Me, without desires for profit, with no claims to proprietorship, and free from lethargy, fight.

That is awesome, Jai. Happy to know devotion helps you.

Me too, I notice some positive changes in me, especially in the past 2 yrs.

Not sure if this forum can tell the difference, though.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Devotion to what?

 

[Viraja]

Devotion to what?

Devotion to God, and practice in terms of propitiating him/her every day and following a devotional routine.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Devotion to God, and practice in terms of propitiating him/her every day and following a devotional routine.

None of the choices reflect my view.

It depends on the individual and their needs based on their karma and understanding of their being.

 

[Viraja]

None of the choices reflect my view.

It depends on the individual and their needs based on their karma and understanding of their being.

Let us say, an individual knows himself/herself well enough, based on self-assessment/evaluation.

Will that suffice for making further progress? (To be defined in terms of emotional maturity, empathy towards all beings, emotional stability, acceptance of one's conditions in life, and eagerness to grow further).

This is where I place the role of devotional practices to be conducive in making further progress possible. Do you not see it as a possibility?

Eager for your reply.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Let us say, an individual knows himself/herself well enough, based on self-assessment/evaluation.

Will that suffice for making further progress? (To be defined in terms of emotional maturity, empathy towards all beings, emotional stability, acceptance of one's conditions in life, and eagerness to grow further).

This is where I place the role of devotional practices to be conducive in making further progress possible. Do you not see it as a possibility?

Eager for your reply.

When I speak of understanding of being, I’m not speaking about understanding of the jiva, but understanding of one’s true nature.

What more growth or progress is necessary for a Brahmajnani? At that point, what could be the purpose of devotion?

 

[Viraja]

When I speak of understanding of being, I’m not speaking about understanding of the jiva, but understanding of one’s true nature.

What more growth or progress is necessary for a Brahmajnani? At that point, what could be the purpose of devotion?

No, as a 50-yr old, I know my pitfalls. But that does not necessarily guarantee that I am making progress. I have a long way to go w.r.t my assertivity, and emotional maturity factors. But somewhere I tend to believe (although not sure of it) that if I am regular in my sadhana (need not necessarily be devotion, but could be meditation as well), it could help. May be I am wrong.

 

[SalixIncendium]

No, as a 50-yr old, I know my pitfalls. But that does not necessarily guarantee that I am making progress. I have a long way to go w.r.t my assertivity, and emotional maturity factors. But somewhere I tend to believe (although not sure of it) that if I am regular in my sadhana (need not necessarily be devotion, but could be meditation as well), it could help. May be I am wrong.

I don’t consider sadhana and devotion to be synonymous. Devotion is only one form of sadhana. Meditation, as you said, is another. While I have no practical use for devotion as a transtheist, I do find use for meditation and practice it regularly.

 

[JustGeorge]

But somewhere I tend to believe (although not sure of it) that if I am regular in my sadhana (need not necessarily be devotion, but could be meditation as well), it could help. May be I am wrong.

I don't think you're wrong. I think it could help. However, I notice when I stop being attached to what I get out of the devotional practice, curiously, I am more benefited.

I know I can be kind of an oddball, but when I do a practice because I 'have' to, it loses its meaning. There is some benefit in the beginning to doing something out of an obligation, but if it doesn't stick after awhile, it may not be the best action. I initially kept Ekadashi out of some sense of 'have to's. Then I didn't keep it a few times. And then I found I wanted to. When I do things because I want to, I feel the benefits are far greater.

 

[Viraja]

I don't think you're wrong. I think it could help. However, I notice when I stop being attached to what I get out of the devotional practice, curiously, I am more benefited.

I know I can be kind of an oddball, but when I do a practice because I 'have' to, it loses its meaning. There is some benefit in the beginning to doing something out of an obligation, but if it doesn't stick after awhile, it may not be the best action. I initially kept Ekadashi out of some sense of 'have to's. Then I didn't keep it a few times. And then I found I wanted to. When I do things because I want to, I feel the benefits are far greater.

I partially agree, but also disagree to some extent.

While I totally agree that if you do something because you like it, you're more likely to keep at it, yet some other times, being forced or forcing oneself in a disciplined manner to do something you may not initially like, may help cultivate some good habits.

For example, I describe myself being moderately active, what with housework during the day, but I do not exercise. Sometime back, I started forcing myself to a long walk and initially I disliked it to the core. But on continuous practice, I started liking it very much. (I lost pretty good amount of weight formerly, but gained it back). They say, the US military first trains its men not in combat, but making the bed first thing in the morning, because first necessity for a human, it is said, is to be disciplined.

But there is something called personal choices being involved in this. Maybe, you are trying to say, if you like a habit you'll keep at it, that way, benefits are higher, to which I totally agree.

 

[JustGeorge]

For example, I describe myself being moderately active, what with housework during the day, but I do not exercise. Sometime back, I started forcing myself to a long walk and initially I disliked it to the core. But on continuous practice, I started liking it very much. (I lost pretty good amount of weight formerly, but gained it back). They say, the US military first trains its men not in combat, but making the bed first thing in the morning, because first necessity for a human, it is said, is to be disciplined.

This example is perfect! I think in the beginning, making yourself do it is beneficial. But, if significant time passes and you still find it is being forced, its time to look at a different way of doing things.

I remember trying to make myself like onions awhile back. I spent months preparing them different ways. I was talking about it at a BUddhist Path group, and one of the older men told me "its time to accept you don't like onions". Profound, and not just in reference to the onions.

 

[Viraja]

This example is perfect! I think in the beginning, making yourself do it is beneficial. But, if significant time passes and you still find it is being forced, its time to look at a different way of doing things.

I remember trying to make myself like onions awhile back. I spent months preparing them different ways. I was talking about it at a BUddhist Path group, and one of the older men told me "its time to accept you don't like onions". Profound, and not just in reference to the onions.

Agree to this.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, devotion made thugs, robbers and thieves more determined in their nefarious activities. So, effects of devotion depend on the inclination of person. Rakshasas were generally great devotees - Hiranyakashipu, Ravana, Banasura, etc.

But more specifically, I'm looking for evidence of mantra-power, vibration-power, and potency leading to positive results in terms of character and personality.

Ah, self-improvement techniques!

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't think you're wrong. I think it could help. However, I notice when I stop being attached to what I get out of the devotional practice, curiously, I am more benefited.

I know I can be kind of an oddball, but when I do a practice because I 'have' to, it loses its meaning. There is some benefit in the beginning to doing something out of an obligation, but if it doesn't stick after awhile, it may not be the best action. I initially kept Ekadashi out of some sense of 'have to's. Then I didn't keep it a few times. And then I found I wanted to. When I do things because I want to, I feel the benefits are far greater.

'Want to' is key for a lot of life choices. If you have a job in which you rarely feel 'I want to go to work' then it's time to look for a new career. With regard to devotion, and smaller things there is often the factor that initially there is hesitance, but once you get there, it changes.

There are 'have to' things though, like parenting, as by having kids, you took on that obligation.