Do you believe in the concept of the chosen people of god

[jewscout]

As I said before if you make up the concept of chosen people, you can make people who believe in it to reach your goal, I used hitler as an example.. his goal was domination and to take germany out of the economic depression. For the Israelites my opinion was the goal was to unite them and take them out of the condition that they were in which was slavery.

then how can you be insulted, as you put it, by a tool that is used to free people from slavery?

I myself find it insulting to say that there are chosen people of god.

Isn't that a good thing then?

 

[ProfLogic]

then how can you be insulted, as you put it, by a tool that is used to free people from slavery?


Isn't that a good thing then?

Its not insulting that people were freed from oppression but it is when someone says they are chosen since everyone is equal in this world.

 

[evearael]

Its not insulting that people were freed from oppression but it is when someone says they are chosen since everyone is equal in this world.

How does someone saying they are chosen effect equality?

everyone is equal in this world

Proof, please.

 

[ProfLogic]

How does someone saying they are chosen effect equality?

Chosen depicts selected when you put god with it (and if you are religious) then it elevates ones self.

Proof, please.

The proof I need is how I treat people.....

 

[evearael]

Chosen depicts selected when you put god with it (and if you are religious) then it elevates ones self.

Considering how many times God chastized the Israelites for faltering, I would harding consider the ideology as self-aggrandizing.

The proof I need is how I treat people.....

So, are you claiming Jews treat people poorly? Please explain.

 

[michel]

I myself find it insulting to say that there are chosen people of god. Through out history men have done this concept. Recently Hitler and Hirohito. They united their country, thus the concept of chosen people and divine, as they say history repeats itself, why not use the concept over and over again. Smart bible myth writers...

I believe every human is part of the 'Chosen people of God' (if you are going to use that expression; certainly no set group above others.

 

[ProfLogic]

Considering how many times God chastized the Israelites for faltering, I would harding consider the ideology as self-aggrandizing.

So are you saying that they were never chosen?

So, are you claiming Jews treat people poorly? Please explain.

I am stating my personal treatment of people......

 

[evearael]

ProfLogic, you said:

[FONT=&quot]I myself find it insulting to say that there are chosen people of god.[/FONT]

I replied:

[FONT=&quot]Why? How is this valid in a debate?[/FONT]

You said:

[FONT=&quot]the Title says if you believe in the concept, thats the debate...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Which does not address my response to your statement. Since you did not back up your previous statement, I said:

[FONT=&quot]Then you acknowledge the previous statement made regarding your feelings about the concept of a chosen people has no relevance to a debate.[/FONT]

To which you replied:

[FONT=&quot]Can you elaborate?[/FONT]

The original statement made:

[FONT=&quot]I myself find it insulting to say that there are chosen people of god.[/FONT]

by you is irrelevant to a debate regarding the following:

[FONT=&quot]Do you believe in the concept of the chosen people of god[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Booko]

more importantly is the concept of being G-d's Chosen People (i.e. Jews) necessarily equate to some form of superiority?
that is not the teachings of Judaism today...

No, it isn't. But I can tell you from personal experience that it's the meaning many Christians make of "Chosen People." That somehow you view yourselves as "above" Gentiles.

Unless they actually manage to have a conversation with someone who is Jewish, they won't find out what Jews make of "Chosen People." I've never gotten an air of superiority in the Jewish communities I've had contact with.

 

[ProfLogic]

ProfLogic, you said:
I replied:
You said:
Which does not address my response to your statement. Since you did not back up your previous statement, I said:
To which you replied:


The original statement made:

by you is irrelevant to a debate regarding the following:

I am stating that I do not believe that a particular group of people is chosen by a god, I am insulted because we are all equals. If somebody thinks they are above anyone, then that is their problem. I say myth writers because I do not believe in what the book teaches about being chosen.

 

[Booko]

I am under the impression that God does what She wants.

Yes, I have that impression as well.

 

[ProfLogic]

ProfLogic, you said:
I replied:
You said:
Which does not address my response to your statement. Since you did not back up your previous statement, I said:
To which you replied:


The original statement made:

by you is irrelevant to a debate regarding the following:

Unless I miss it you never said your opinion about the chosen people of god... what is your stand? Unless you are debating for the sake of debating.....

 

[Booko]

Great reference point, do you know of a good english translation of the Quaram or Koran... Thanks....

I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP, but...

Yes, several.

Ali Yusef is the "approved" translation, and I use that a fair amount.

I also use Arberry's translation, because it does a better job of preserving the poetic value of the original text.

There's also "The Meaning of the Glorious Qu'ran" which has useful background info about the conditions under which various surih were revealed.

If you want a searchable concordance, you can download Ocean here:

http://www.bahai-education.org/ocean/

It has texts from several different religions, both canonical and just related useful stuff. My biggest beef is they lump texts for Judaism in with "Christianity" and don't have anything from other Jewish sources. That's a shortcoming, but you can find that info elsewhere online at least.

 

[evearael]

[FONT=&quot]My point is there is no such person/people is chosen by a god....Man had used this through out time to manipulate people.[/FONT]

"No such person/people is chosen by a god" Proof, please.
"Man had used this through out time to manipulate people" So... you're point is being against manipulation? If so, then what do you describe your posts on RF as so far? You are trying to manipulate peoples opinions, correct? (That is not necessarily negative, by the way.)

If its baseless then the documents/historical artifacts of World War II are all baseless, plus the witnesses who were alive then. Thats is where you will find it. Israelites are a group of people to me.....

"That is where you will find it" is not a sufficient source. If your claim is that all of the above have used the term 'chosen people' then you must state that explicitly. If your claim is that because of the use of that term, they are alike in other manners, then you must state it explicitly.

[FONT=&quot]Read the Exodus[/FONT]

I've read it many, many times. You made the claim, you back it up. Chapter and verse, please.

[FONT=&quot]Its relevant since the chosen people idea came from it so thats the point the chosen people of a god has no truth its a myth.[/FONT]

Whether or not a diety exists, in any religion, is the source of many, many threads in the forum. Let's debate the topic at hand.

My point is you can make up the a concept of "chosen people" to serve any means that you desired.. In hitler's case it world domination...[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No, I said that was Hitlers goal. In the Israelites its to get out of slavery at least in exodus.[/FONT]

Thank you for clarifying. So, in that case wouldn't it be the person who is utilizing the term in a harmful manner who is in the wrong, not the term? Why penalize another person who uses the term in a manner that is not harmful for the action of others? Why penalize the Jews who have existed many thousands of years prior to Hitler and Hirohito?

 

[Booko]

Hitler and hirohito came from different backgrounds and yet believes the same things and wanted domination manipulation and expansion. Something drives parts of humanity to do the same things. It must be mental suggestion.....

There's a significant difference between Hirohito and Hitler's views on "chosen people" and Judaisms (well, aside from the fact that the first 2 are inherently destructive while the latter isn't). The difference is, no matter how much you studied or wanted to become Japanese or Aryan, you couldn't become that unless you already were.

But anyone can become Jewish.

 

[Booko]

Hitler used the chosen people of god concept as one of his selling point so people believe in his mission of world domination. If people think they would be superior than their tormentors then it would be so easy to manipulate them to do things that they would not normally do. in hitler's case germany went into deep economic woes after WW I and the german people were in the verge of collapse. It was due to one country (which could be considered as Germany's tormentors - France). Wouldn't it be logical to make up this chosen people concept to unite people and under a god...... ?

The God Hitler used was nationalism and a perverted sort of social darwinism that had no basis in either scientific or historical fact.

The connections to various occultic ideas are well documented, all of which has nothing to do with the Bible, and which Biblical texts themselves would seem to reject, and which the Church (East, West. Coptic or Protestant) has historically rejected.

Hitler did indeed invent a "chosen people" -- the so-called Aryans. The fact that he had a near ancestor named Solomon should raise some eyebrows, especially since there appears to have been a concerted effort to wipe out this fact of Hitler's own family history.

The real Aryans I know, and as a Baha'i I know quite a few, mostly have a very good chuckle over Hitler's ramblings about Aryans, given they understand they would have been rejected by Hitler as "impure" for being far too brown for Hitler's taste.

There are many things that humanity can learn from Hitler.

One is not to beat or otherwise abuse your children.

That's how monsters are made.

 

[Booko]

My point is you can make up the a concept of "chosen people" to serve any means that you desired.. In hitler's case it world domination...

Yah...I think the point several of us here are trying to make, but that you seem to not be getting yet, is that if you examine what being "chosen" means to Jews, you find it has no nefarious meaning at all.

The Bible itself, as Jewscout (or was it evarael?) depicts the Israelites as being very stubborn about their relationship with God. The name "Israel" itself describes that relationship (He Who Struggles With God). It means nothing about stuggling with the neighbors, much less world domination.

From my pov, they were indeed "Chosen" -- for the purpose of spreading the idea of monotheism. It was quite a unique idea at the time, and they have perservered in holding onto that idea through many many trials, which I personally find quite admirable.

I think you meant "end" and not "means" above?

 

[Booko]

Its not insulting that people were freed from oppression but it is when someone says they are chosen since everyone is equal in this world.

Saying they are Chosen does not make the rest of us unChosen.

The questions you're not asking is this:

Chosen...for *what*?

The rest of us get chosen for something else. We have other work to do.

So...what exactly is the problem?

 

[evearael]

So are you saying that they were never chosen?

from Leviticus 20:24 "...I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations."
The Jews are blessed to be known as the Chosen People. They are held to much higher standards by God, than any other people... 613 laws, as opposed to 7. I am stating that throughout the Tanach and the Talmud, great pains have been taken to illustrate all of the faults and mistakes of the Israelites, thus it is hardly self-aggrandizing... if anything it is meant tohumble. It is certainly a blessing, but one that carries quite a bit of responsibility.

I am stating my personal treatment of people......

...is what? Please explain what you mean and the relevance.

I am stating that I do not believe that a particular group of people is chosen by a god, I am insulted because we are all equals. If somebody thinks they are above anyone, then that is their problem. I say myth writers because I do not believe in what the book teaches about being chosen.

"We are all equals" Certainly a noble opinion, but one that still requires proof, and one that would probably be better addressed on a different thread.
"I am insulted" which you follow up with "that is their problem" Which is it?
"I say myth writers because I do not believe" That is fine, believe what you wish, but stating an opinion without offering reasons will not gain any converts to your beliefs.

Unless I miss it you never said your opinion about the chosen people of god... what is your stand? Unless you are debating for the sake of debating.....

I don't have any issue with any person or group claiming to be chosen, any more than I would have an issue with someone claiming they are the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I believe very strongly in the freedom of religious expression. Now, when the word 'chosen' is used for any sort of harmful agenda, I do take offense, but not at the word 'chosen'... but instead with the people with the harmful agenda.

 

[Booko]

I am stating that I do not believe that a particular group of people is chosen by a god, I am insulted because we are all equals. If somebody thinks they are above anyone, then that is their problem. I say myth writers because I do not believe in what the book teaches about being chosen.

So, you misunderstand what the book says, and that's the book's fault?

Look, it's not like there aren't enough of us out here to explain the meaning to you.

But you could have ASKED what it meant to Jews, before running off on such wild assumptions as you've done.

Deciding things before examining the facts leads to faulty *logic*.

GIGO.