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Do you believe in reincarnation?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
No. It is unevidenced speculation and adds additional unnecessary assumptions in my opinion.
Occam's razor suggests it is unlikely to be true.
Basically suffering is perfectly explained by natural causes in my view. And the fact that the first creatures to have ever lived underwent death and where they had feelings suffering shows that death and suffering is in at least some cases entirely caused by nature, so once again it adds unnecessary assumption to say that the death and/or suffering of creatures which came after is not due to natural causes but the death suffering of the first creatures was due to natural causes as I see it.
The natural causes are still there same as they have always been.
Then there is things such as how does for example a mosquito act in a moral way that increases it's karma considering that a mosquito or a single celled organism is bound by it's nature to do what it does.
The whole process reeks of blaming things for acting in accordance with their nature as if they had a choice in my view.
Ok, thank you. I think it is not the same as reincarnation, if people are raised from the death.
And about Ecclesiastes 3:21, I think it is also good to notice that it says:
And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Ecc. 12:7
I have understood reincarnate means one is born many times again in different forms. I don't think Bible is speaking of that.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
There are different ways to consider reincarnation.
IYO, isn't it possible that other truths may be taught and encouraged in some other religions? I'm happy you believe in the Bible, but can't there also be other holy books or philosophies of life that can provide us insight?
I don't say there can't be. But before saying there is philosophies of life that can provide us insight, I would like to see it.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Would you say the same rule should apply about going to heaven or hell?
It's certainly one possibility that can occur and it does happen. The Norse believed in reincarnation among family lines. Sometimes a dead father would be reborn to his son and so on.
Glaurung
Denizen of Niflheim
Reincarnation is a sham perpetuated by archonic demons who keep us trapped in a cycle of life and death on a prison planet. Ignore the light. Ignore your loved ones and your gods. (Mere illusions). Find a hole in the sky grid and escape into the true reality. There's nothing to learn here. You cannot learn in a system that wipes your memory after every "lesson". That's absurd.
yesWould you say the same rule should apply about going to heaven or hell?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, what you're telling me is that God didn't give a diddly damn about any humans before 30 c.e. or in other areas of the world who never heard of Jesus. Do you really think that's logical?
If you think so, you have misunderstood me.
I think God cares of all people. But, obviously many people have also rejected God and don't want to hear Him. However, I think people who have chance, because eternal life is promised for those who are righteous and it is possible to count person righteous, even if he has not heard of Jesus, by this:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science testifying with them, and their thoughts among them-selves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's a real educated guess but promising.
We all were dead before.
Yet here we are right now.
There is absolutely nothing against this from repeating over and over as atoms and molecules arrange, fall apart, arrange again in endless ways for infinity.
For me, I seriously think we are part of a true continuum.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
But the above avoids answering he simple question as didn't God care about people before Jesus' time and in areas of the world that didn't or don't know anything about him? And what about people who behave morally and compassionately in other religions or who are nontheistic?
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." - John 3:16
This verse claims that God loves the world. But is that actually true? I ask because of Proverbs 16:4, which states he creates wicked people for his own purpose. I wonder how Christians will justify God creating wicked people. I ask, How can God be all-loving if he creates some people to be wicked?
FYI, Bible Hub provides several versions of this verse: Proverbs 16:4.
KJV: "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
NIV: "The LORD works out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster."
ESV: "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."
Wicked: 1. evil or immoral; 2. maliciously or mischievously playful; 3. severe and distressing.
According to this verse, he creates wicked people, and according to Isaiah 45:7, he also creates evil. Furthermore, according to Genesis 6:6-7, he regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. I would think that an omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9–10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7–10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17) God would know better than to create something that he foreknew he would later regret creating. The Bible contains other verses that mention God's regrets in addition to creating mankind (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10). There are some verses describing him changing his mind about bringing disasters down on his own people as punishment for their sins against him (Jeremiah 26:13; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Joel 2:13). For the record, Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and Joel 2:13 coincide with Isaiah 45:7 (NIV), which says, "I form the light and create darkness; I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." The New King James uses the word "calamity" instead of disaster, and the KJV uses the word "evil" instead of disaster or calamity.
KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.
NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.
ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."
Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
If this is true, then why do you think he creates some people to be wicked?
"The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster." - Proverbs 16:4 (NLT)
According to Romans 10:8–13, whoever declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. Not only that, but they are justified by the belief in their heart and the profession of their faith in Jesus, and they will not be put to shame. In fact, verse 13 plainly states, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Furthermore, Ephesians 2:8–9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." However, there is an apparent loophole in this seemingly hopeful promise, such as the implication that a person could lose their salvation and be eternally damned if they don't follow God's will.
I'm speaking of Matthew 7:21, which states, "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," and the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31–46). In this parable, the "sheep" were rewarded with eternal life for their good works of feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in a stranger, clothing the needy, and visiting the sick or people in prison. However, Jesus lambasted the "goats" for failing to feed the hungry, quench the thirst of the thirsty, welcome strangers, clothe the needy, or pay visits to the ill or those in prison. Jesus cursed them and sent them to eternal damnation. As implied, the "goats" lacked the good works to be rewarded with eternal life, in spite of the fact that they were Christians who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. Herein lies another inconsistent message in the Bible, in my opinion, as Romans 10:8–13 states that a person will be saved if they declare with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Ephesians 2:8–9 also states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." In my opinion, if someone gives you something as a gift but arbitrarily takes the gift away because you don't follow their rules, then it isn't a gift. I don't consider something a gift if the one who gave it to me could ruthlessly take it away if I don't obey them.
I believe in reincarnation. I believe everything is energy and believe our consciousness, soul, or what-have-you is energy. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, so when our bodies die, the energy that makes up our conscious, soul, or what-have-you has to go somewhere or become something else. The matter that we're made of also has to be recycled, or maybe it becomes energy when we're cremated. It may take a hundred million, or a thousand, or fifty years but I think we're eventually "recycled" into something else. That could be another person, an animal, a plant, an insect, some alien being, or what-have-you. But no, not a rock.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, I have issue with those scriptures and many others.
I don't think that means God creates someone to be wicked. I think it means, the wicked also serve the purposes of God. The wicked may have bad intentions, but God can turn all their evil doings for His benefit in the end.
I think one example of this is the book of Job. In there God allows Satan to reveal how evil he is and that Satan doesn't know as well as God. So, the temporary evil that Satan does, eventually serves God by showing that God is good and knows better than Satan.
Being saved means on is saved from the judgment that would come because of sin. When Jesus forgave sins, he saved the person from the judgment. But, he also said "sin no more". I think this could be compared to a criminal who is pardoned and released early from the prison, if he after that brakes the law, he will go back in jail and the earlier pardon is not useful and it is not useful to say "I was pardoned, now I can brake the law all the time freely".
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “Behold, you are made well. Sin no more, so that nothing worse happens to you.”
John 5:14
She said, “No one, Lord.” Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”
John 8:11
Forgiveness saves, but it is not useful, if person continues in sin, makes new sin and gains the wage of sin for the new sin. It doesn't help, if the old sin is forgiven, if there is new. That is why Jesus teaches that there must happen change in person, one must be born anew.
“Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into God’s Kingdom. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’
John 3:5-7
That words that Jesus declared can cause that change.
But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be-come God’s children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
And when that happens, person becomes righteous.
He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn’t commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can’t sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
And if person is righteous, it will show in his actions also. And those who are righteous, will get the eternal life as a gift.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
Righteous person will do righteous actions. If those actions are missing, person is not righteous. But, it is not really the missing actions that are problem, it is the lack of righteousness. Actions are only the result, not the reason. It is the same as in the parable of a tree, if it produces good fruit, it is a good tree, if it produces bad fruit, it is not a good tree. By "fruits" we can know who is righteous and who is not.