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Do you accept the fact that Paul Manafort colluded with the Russians?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by fantome profane, Jan 12, 2019.

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  1. Yes, the facts are clear, he colluded.

    100.0%
  2. I still need more evidence to decide.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. This is fake news! Witch hunt!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. fantome profane

    fantome profane quintessence of dust
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    I want to emphasize that this is a question about Manafort, not about Trump. And that even if it does not involve Trump it is still a very serious scandal.

    So the case is as follows.

    Several Russian individuals working for the GRU have been indicated for interfering with the 2016 election.

    While this was going on Paul Manafort was sharing data internally generated by the Trump campaign with a Russian oligarch with ties to Putin.

    This is exactly the kind of data that would be useful to the Russian troll farm in targeting their efforts.

    It seems very clear to me. This is the proverbial smoking gun (or smocking gun as Trump calls it).

    https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.was...10/this-is-exactly-what-collusion-looks-like/


    Napolitano on Collusion: Mueller Can Show Trump Campaign "Had A Connection To Russian Intelligence"
     
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  2. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    "Do you accept it as a fact"
     
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  3. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    What's to accept? He gave polling data to Russians connected to the Russian government. That is collusion.

    We also know (from Donald Trump Jr's emails) that during the 2016 Presidential election Russians contacted the Trump campaign, directly told them the Russian government was working to help Donald Trump get elected, and offered to collaborate/collude/coordinate apparently in a quid pro quo offer centering on the Magnitsky Act.

    We know that Trump campaign officials not only agreed to the offer, but were excited to do so ("If it's what you say, I love it") and eventually met with the Russians. Oddly enough, the campaign's (eventual, after lying about it) explanation is that sure, they met with the Russians expecting to get info, but the Russians didn't produce what the campaign wanted....as if that exonerates them.

    The only questions are whether Donald Trump knew about any of it, and whether the Republicans in the Senate will be willing to do anything in response.
     
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  4. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
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    Sort of makes you want Joe Mccarthy.
     
  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Right now he is charged with illegal bank activities not collusion. So it's not collusion that's a crime it illegal activities committed in the process of collusion.
     
  6. Stanyon

    Stanyon RF's Ultra -Square

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    Step right up and win a prize!
     
  7. fantome profane

    fantome profane quintessence of dust
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    The word collusion just means to work with or cooperate with. If you collude with someone to commit a crime that is a crime.

    Did Paul Manafort cooperate with the Russians to interfere with the election? Did he give them material assistance? If so he “colluded” with them.

    I didn’t ask if he was charged with collusion, I didn’t even ask if it was a crime. I asked if the evidence is sufficient to conclude that he did it.
     
  8. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    Of course he did. That much was revealed in a court filing by Manafort's lawyers.
     
  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I thought the answer to that was obvious, everyone seems to accept that he did. So what? By itself it's a non-issue.
     
  10. sun rise

    sun rise "Love pours forth from the heart of the universe."
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    Crimes committed by the right are "non-issues"?
     
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  11. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    The CEO of a US Presidential campaign actively aiding an enemy's efforts to influence our elections is a non-issue?

    Wow.
     
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  12. fantome profane

    fantome profane quintessence of dust
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    In normal times you could expect practically everyone to accept something with this much evidence. But these are not normal times. A significant portion of the population will refuse to accept any wrongdoing on the part of the Trump campaign or administration regardless of the evidence.

    So far, no takers. I expected at least a few to deny the obvious. Perhaps I am wrong in expecting that. But I will give it more time.

    If by non issue you mean the facts are clear, I agree. If you mean it is unimportant I could not disagree more.

    The campaign chairman working for a major presidential campaign, for the candidate that won, conspired with a foreign adversary to interfere with the election. That is a major issue. This will be seen as a major historic event, and we get to watch it happening.
     
    #12 fantome profane, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  13. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    I'm really surprised there hasn't been a movie yet (unless I missed it).
     
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  14. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    I think it matters, but it doesn't matter for Trump.

    However, does it matter that Hillary Clinton, the FBI staff, and whatnot was working with them too? Where's that investigation? :D Man, you know, I like Trump because he kind of reminds me of my dad, but wow... we dodged a bullet... :D No matter how bad Trump is, he's not Hillary bad. :D Fusion GPS was also involved in Russian government issues and lobbying, and the DNC was working with them. I find it amusing none the less... a kind of pot calling the kettle black moment...

    I find this bit interesting too:

    "Natalia Veselnitskaya's visa for entry into the United States had expired by 2016. She could not enter the country and a United States Attorney denied her "temporary parole" to enter the country. Nonetheless, the Obama Administration overruled the United States Attorney and allowed Ms. Veselnitskaya into the United States on an expired visa to meet with Donald Trump, Jr." You'd think a known Russian government agent wouldn't be the sort you allowed into the country to meet with someone close to the Presidential race. :D

    "My understanding is there are generally only two grounds for such permission to be given. First, a lawyer like Ms. Veselnitskaya could show she was the only legal agent of a company currently in court. That did not apply here because Prevezon also retained the American law firm Baker Hostetler, which also has ties to Fusion GPS. The second way is to have a collaborative relationship with the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

    Were Democrats Working With The Russians? | RealClearPolitics

    So, at this point you have the FBI investigation collusion that they are involved in. They should recuse themselves. :D
     
    #14 Mindmaster, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  15. tytlyf

    tytlyf The Mind's Eye

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    False equivalence.

    And RedState.com isn't a credible source. Neither is Erick Erickson. Just thought I'd point that out. That may be the problem with where you're learning false information.
     
  16. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    I knew about that "information" before I knew about Red State, but nice try. :D

    Obama's administration signing off of Russian government agents working in USA is also available in various released documents. I don't really know what to tell you, lol. Hillary's fingers were all over Uranium One deals, and Mueller was directly involved in the transactions.

    Anyway, just another case of shooting the messenger.
     
  17. tytlyf

    tytlyf The Mind's Eye

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    Yawn, all you have is fake RW spin. You like people lying to your face.
     
  18. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    What? When did Hillary and the FBI coordinate with Russian intelligence agents?

    Probably should ask the people who run the government....you know, Trump's people. Funny how for all their bloviating in the media about "crooked Hillary", when it comes down to doing anything about it, they just can't seem to find the time.

    They were? How exactly?

    She was allowed into the country under "immigration parole" because she was the legal representation for a Russian, Denis Katsyv, accused of money laundering.

    Uranium One was reviewed and approved by 9 different federal agencies, one of which was the Dept. of State.

    FACT CHECK: Hillary Clinton Gave 20 Percent of United States' Uranium to Russia in Exchange for Clinton Foundation Donations?

    "Among the ways these accusations stray from the facts is in attributing a power of veto or approval to Secretary Clinton that she simply did not have. Clinton was one of nine cabinet members and department heads that sit on the CFIUS, and the secretary of the treasury is its chairperson. CFIUS members are collectively charged with evaluating proposed foreign acquisitions for potential national security issues, then turning their findings over to the president. By law, the committee can’t veto a transaction; only the president can.

    All nine federal agencies were required to approve the Uranium One transaction before it could go forward.
    "​

    So anyways....we know for a fact now that the Trump campaign was told the Russian government was working to influence our elections, the Trump campaign met with the Russians with the hope of a quid pro quo arrangement, and the Trump campaign colluded with Russians connected to the Kremlin. No amount of arm waving and shouting "what about Hillary" will change that.
     
  19. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    Accuses incoming President of Russian collusion, but works with Russians all of the time. Hrmm.. :D

    Yeah, it's fake spin until it happened. It did, so, lol. :D Regardless of whether Clinton, Obama, Mueller, and what not were directly involved. (I know Mueller was man on the ground in Russia.) I think it would be pretty odd for our government to allow such a sale to proceed, especially with all the professed "we hate Russia" of the incumbent Democrats at the time. I'm not so much for conspiracies, so much as this seems absolutely nuts to me -- Russia isn't a country you give nuclear material to. But, the bottom line is, they're always talking out of the sides of their mouth so I have no idea why there are so many fanboys on this site. If you think they're ever honest about anything you're just turning a blind eye.

    I guess Newsweek is down on the "conspiracy theories" as well. Robert Mueller was the FBI director when Clinton brokered the Uranium One deal

    Anyway, I just look at the average Democrat as a zombie, not that I particularly trust the Republicans either, at least it still looks like they got a bit of glimmer in their eyes. So, I guess if I have to chose between a group that does everything possible to destroy the country and one that just has a few values that I find dated -- there isn't much of a choice. Too bad the Libertarians do nothing but troll, we could really use a serious third option. :D
     
  20. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I can accept it as a fact, if it was proven to be a fact.
     
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