Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims

[paarsurrey]

What indication do we have that this Hadith was meant to be taken allegorically, or that it’s authors intended it as allegory?

G-d is only attributive Being, he has no physical or material body to descend or ascend, it is a glaring clue our dear friend that it is allegoric.
Right, please?
Sun, scientifically, does not rise or sets, still the language uses
these expressions daily, nobody challenges that these idioms should not be used. Right, please?
Hadith e Qudsi shows that Muhammad had revelation from G-d that he was told not to include it in Quran. Right, please?
It also shows that Muhammad as also his companions and many Ouleuaullah (friends of G-d) had converse with G-d but still for all commandments Quran must be followed and obeyed. Right, please?
G-d had guaranteed that Quran will remain fresh, pristine and secure/unchaged for all times to come vowel to vowel, letter to letter and word to word. There is no such guarantee for Hadith e Qudsi or for Hadith in general, as to its wording, its context and the chain of narrations. Right, please?
This is my understanding.

Regards

 

[danieldemol]

... There is no such guarantee for Hadith e Qudsi or for Hadith in general, as to its wording, its context and the chain of narrations. Right, please?
This is my understanding.

Regards

It’s interesting that you consider the possibility that Hadith e Qudsi may be fake, but regardless it matters little for the purpose of this discussion. Even if it is fake it still offers a fragmentary glimpse of what early Muslims believed about Allah.

 

[Shia Islam]

Taken From 110 Ahadith Qudsi | Sacred Hadith Compilation | Qudsi Hadith

#72 'that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: In the last third of every night our Lord (SWT) descends to the lowermost heaven* and says: Who is calling Me, so that I may answer him? Who is asking Me, so that I may grant him? Who is seeking forgiveness from Me, so that I may forgive him. (This Hadith is sound and reported in Musnad of Abu Ya'la).'

Consider the fact that due to the spherical nature of the earth, it is day on one side and night on the other. That is, it is at the same time day and night. So is Allah descending or ascending?
Also consider that the concept of Allah descending to a physical location seems to imply that Allah is a physical being (thus capable of having a physical location).

Which brings me to the question, Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims?

Please discuss.

*Sometimes translated as "earth's sky" see also Hadith #105 which tells of Allah descending to the "lowest heaven" which it explains in brackets is the "(world's sky)"

Interestingly, the early Shiites have asked one of their imams, about this particular hadith, and here is the question and the answer, with the source:

وَ رَوَى عَبْدُ الْعَظِيمِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَسَنِيُّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ أَبِي مَحْمُودٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا ع يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ مَا تَقُولُ فِي الْحَدِيثِ الَّذِي يَرْوِيهِ النَّاسُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص أَنَّهُ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يَنْزِلُ فِي كُلِّ لَيْلَةِ جُمُعَةٍ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا
فَقَالَ ع لَعَنَ اللَّهُ الْمُحَرِّفِينَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ وَ اللَّهُ مَا قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص ذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا قَالَ ع إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يُنْزِلُ مَلَكاً إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ فِي الثُّلُثِ الْأَخِيرِ وَ لَيْلَةَ الْجُمُعَةِ فِي أَوَّلِ اللَّيْلِ فَيَأْمُرُهُ فَيُنَادِي هَلْ مِنْ سَائِلٍ فَأُعْطِيَهُ هَلْ مِنْ تَائِبٍ فَأَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِ هَلْ مِنْ مُسْتَغْفِرٍ فَأَغْفِرَ لَهُ يَا طَالِبَ الْخَيْرِ أَقْبِلْ وَ يَا طَالِبَ الشَّرِّ أَقْصِرْ

فَلَا يَزَالُ يُنَادِي بِهَذَا حَتَّى يَطْلُعَ الْفَجْرُ فَإِذَا طَلَعَ الْفَجْرُ عَادَ إِلَى مَحَلِّهِ مِنْ مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاءِ حَدَّثَنِي بِذَلِكَ أَبِي عَنْ جَدِّي عَنْ آبَائِهِ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص


`Abd al-`Adhīm bin `Abd Allāh al-Ḥasanī (رضي الله عنه) narrated from Ibrāhīm bin Abī Maḥmūd said, I said to al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’; ‘Are there (anyone) asking for forgiveness, so I can pardon him?’ O the ones who seek good, come forward! O the ones, who seek evil, keep away!’

And he (the angel) will continue calling by this until al-Fajr. And when it is al-Fajr, he (the angel) will return to spot from kingdom of the heavens. My Father narrated that to me, from his grandfather, from his father’s from the messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)’
Source:
al-Sadūq, Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, (Qum: Mu’assasah al-Nashr al-Islāmī, 2nd ed., 1413), vol. 1, pg. 421
---

By the way, in Shia Islam, the essence of God can't be comprehended by human, God is not a body. God can't be seen. God has no form, no shape, no parts.

Their are unlimited number of Shia Hadiths about this matter.
Unfortunately, when people talk about Islam, they tend to overlook the Shia views.

 

[Shad]

In Mohammad's age and area, people were perhaps less scientific than in Europe, China or India. After expansion of Islam, they were in the front.

There are specific areas in the ME, Western Asia, North Africa and East Africa along major trade routes which were just as advanced. Many of those areas were conquered by early Muslim Empires thus they "inherited" a legacy. These places were not backwaters before Islam. Controlling the areas that constitutes the middle-man between East and West was a huge advantage. Hence why the area has been either a core of or battleground of empires.

 

[danieldemol]

Interestingly, the early Shiites have asked one of their imams, about this particular hadith, and here is the question and the answer, with the source:

وَ رَوَى عَبْدُ الْعَظِيمِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَسَنِيُّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ أَبِي مَحْمُودٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا ع يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ مَا تَقُولُ فِي الْحَدِيثِ الَّذِي يَرْوِيهِ النَّاسُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص أَنَّهُ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يَنْزِلُ فِي كُلِّ لَيْلَةِ جُمُعَةٍ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا
فَقَالَ ع لَعَنَ اللَّهُ الْمُحَرِّفِينَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ وَ اللَّهُ مَا قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص ذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا قَالَ ع إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يُنْزِلُ مَلَكاً إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ فِي الثُّلُثِ الْأَخِيرِ وَ لَيْلَةَ الْجُمُعَةِ فِي أَوَّلِ اللَّيْلِ فَيَأْمُرُهُ فَيُنَادِي هَلْ مِنْ سَائِلٍ فَأُعْطِيَهُ هَلْ مِنْ تَائِبٍ فَأَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِ هَلْ مِنْ مُسْتَغْفِرٍ فَأَغْفِرَ لَهُ يَا طَالِبَ الْخَيْرِ أَقْبِلْ وَ يَا طَالِبَ الشَّرِّ أَقْصِرْ

فَلَا يَزَالُ يُنَادِي بِهَذَا حَتَّى يَطْلُعَ الْفَجْرُ فَإِذَا طَلَعَ الْفَجْرُ عَادَ إِلَى مَحَلِّهِ مِنْ مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاءِ حَدَّثَنِي بِذَلِكَ أَبِي عَنْ جَدِّي عَنْ آبَائِهِ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص


`Abd al-`Adhīm bin `Abd Allāh al-Ḥasanī (رضي الله عنه) narrated from Ibrāhīm bin Abī Maḥmūd said, I said to al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’; ‘Are there (anyone) asking for forgiveness, so I can pardon him?’ O the ones who seek good, come forward! O the ones, who seek evil, keep away!’

And he (the angel) will continue calling by this until al-Fajr. And when it is al-Fajr, he (the angel) will return to spot from kingdom of the heavens. My Father narrated that to me, from his grandfather, from his father’s from the messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)’
Source:
al-Sadūq, Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, (Qum: Mu’assasah al-Nashr al-Islāmī, 2nd ed., 1413), vol. 1, pg. 421
---

By the way, in Shia Islam, the essence of God can't be comprehended by human, God is not a body. God can't be seen. God has no form, no shape, no parts.

Their are unlimited number of Shia Hadiths about this matter.
Unfortunately, when people talk about Islam, they tend to overlook the Shia views.

I note the Shia variant has the same issue though. Due to the spherical nature of the earth it is always night and day at the same time. So I suppose the question is still there, is the angel coming or going, or both at once?

 

[Shia Islam]

I note the Shia variant has the same issue though. Due to the spherical nature of the earth it is always night and day at the same time. So I suppose the question is still there, is the angel coming or going, or both at once?

With all respect, to make such a claim, you need to have an absolute knowledge about the true and real nature of time, and the same knowledge about the nature of angels.

Then there are many miraculous Quranic verses and Hadiths talking about astrology, that shows a complicated view of the Cosmos.

Finally, the Hadith itself can be interpreted in many ways.

All the best

 

[paarsurrey]

Interestingly, the early Shiites have asked one of their imams, about this particular hadith, and here is the question and the answer, with the source:

وَ رَوَى عَبْدُ الْعَظِيمِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَسَنِيُّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ أَبِي مَحْمُودٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا ع يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ مَا تَقُولُ فِي الْحَدِيثِ الَّذِي يَرْوِيهِ النَّاسُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص أَنَّهُ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يَنْزِلُ فِي كُلِّ لَيْلَةِ جُمُعَةٍ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا
فَقَالَ ع لَعَنَ اللَّهُ الْمُحَرِّفِينَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ وَ اللَّهُ مَا قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص ذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا قَالَ ع إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى يُنْزِلُ مَلَكاً إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ فِي الثُّلُثِ الْأَخِيرِ وَ لَيْلَةَ الْجُمُعَةِ فِي أَوَّلِ اللَّيْلِ فَيَأْمُرُهُ فَيُنَادِي هَلْ مِنْ سَائِلٍ فَأُعْطِيَهُ هَلْ مِنْ تَائِبٍ فَأَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِ هَلْ مِنْ مُسْتَغْفِرٍ فَأَغْفِرَ لَهُ يَا طَالِبَ الْخَيْرِ أَقْبِلْ وَ يَا طَالِبَ الشَّرِّ أَقْصِرْ

فَلَا يَزَالُ يُنَادِي بِهَذَا حَتَّى يَطْلُعَ الْفَجْرُ فَإِذَا طَلَعَ الْفَجْرُ عَادَ إِلَى مَحَلِّهِ مِنْ مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاءِ حَدَّثَنِي بِذَلِكَ أَبِي عَنْ جَدِّي عَنْ آبَائِهِ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص


`Abd al-`Adhīm bin `Abd Allāh al-Ḥasanī (رضي الله عنه) narrated from Ibrāhīm bin Abī Maḥmūd said, I said to al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’; ‘Are there (anyone) asking for forgiveness, so I can pardon him?’ O the ones who seek good, come forward! O the ones, who seek evil, keep away!’

And he (the angel) will continue calling by this until al-Fajr. And when it is al-Fajr, he (the angel) will return to spot from kingdom of the heavens. My Father narrated that to me, from his grandfather, from his father’s from the messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)’
Source:
al-Sadūq, Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, (Qum: Mu’assasah al-Nashr al-Islāmī, 2nd ed., 1413), vol. 1, pg. 421
---

By the way, in Shia Islam, the essence of God can't be comprehended by human, God is not a body. God can't be seen. God has no form, no shape, no parts.

Their are unlimited number of Shia Hadiths about this matter.
Unfortunately, when people talk about Islam, they tend to overlook the Shia views.

" the essence of God can't be comprehended by human, God is not a body. God can't be seen. God has no form, no shape, no parts."

Very truly said, G-d is attributive and His attributes are manifest everywhere and every-time.

Regards

 

[Shia Islam]

" the essence of God can't be comprehended by human, God is not a body. God can't be seen. God has no form, no shape, no parts."

Very truly said, G-d is attributive and His attributes are manifest everywhere and every-time.

Regards

Hi,

I am sorry if what I wrote was not clear.

Although we in Shia Islam think that “the essence of God can't be comprehended by human, God is not a body. God can't be seen. God has no form, no shape, no parts”,

However, we believe that God has his attributes, and God is something, and we his creatures are something else. God will reward the Good-doers with paradise, and God will condemn pharaoh and those who are like pharaoh to hellfire.

All the best.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi,

I am sorry if what I wrote was not clear.

Although we in Shia Islam think that “the essence of God can't be comprehended by human, God is not a body. God can't be seen. God has no form, no shape, no parts”,

However, we believe that God has his attributes, and God is something, and we his creatures are something else. God will reward the Good-doers with paradise, and God will condemn pharaoh and those who are like pharaoh to hellfire.

All the best.

"something"

Things are physical and or material having a body. G-d is a Being having attributes. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Duncan]

Taken From 110 Ahadith Qudsi | Sacred Hadith Compilation | Qudsi Hadith

#72 'that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: In the last third of every night our Lord (SWT) descends to the lowermost heaven* and says: Who is calling Me, so that I may answer him? Who is asking Me, so that I may grant him? Who is seeking forgiveness from Me, so that I may forgive him. (This Hadith is sound and reported in Musnad of Abu Ya'la).'

Consider the fact that due to the spherical nature of the earth, it is day on one side and night on the other. That is, it is at the same time day and night. So is Allah descending or ascending?
Also consider that the concept of Allah descending to a physical location seems to imply that Allah is a physical being (thus capable of having a physical location).

Which brings me to the question, Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims?

Please discuss.

*Sometimes translated as "earth's sky" see also Hadith #105 which tells of Allah descending to the "lowest heaven" which it explains in brackets is the "(world's sky)"

When it comes to Allah we must always think of verse:

There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. 42:11

so we don't know how HE might do something nor how HE exactly, but we have been informed by Quran or sahih ahadith that HE does it.

Your question is logical and rational, but our imagination and our experience always automatically sets in our mind how any of HIS creation would perform something, as we can only compare something with something we have seen or experienced. So we start from a bad comparison: yes for a human or any of Allahs creation being at multiple places at the same time or any other thing which seems beyond our imagination wouldn't sound rational nor realistic.But when it comes to Allah, this is already quoted in the Quran: and He is with you wherever you are 57:4

Yes one could start interpreting this verse, for example HE is in our heart, but the companions and those after them and the scholars of the early centuries disliked interpretation of Allah's actions and attributes etc.. But as a part of our faith we are asked to believe that HE doesn't have any kind of limitation in HIS actions and could do anything: He only says to it, Be, so there it is.2:217

Sahih al-Bukhari is the most authentic book of the noble Sunna. What al-Bukhari mentioned in his Sahih is that Allah descends every night through His omnipresence and answering His servants' supplication [Du'a]; meaning the revelation of Allah's commands or mercy. Imam Malik said in explaining this hadith: "It means that Allah's commands are revealed every night, but He is the Everlasting One.

In his commentary on Sahih Muslim, imam al-Nawawi said:

This hadith is one of those that talk about Allah's Attributes. Scholars have two well-known opinions on this hadith: First, the predecessors and some theologians maintain that Allah's descend must be interpreted in the true way that befits His majesty and not according to the apparent meaning we know. It must be believed that Allah is above the attributes of His creations including movement and others. Second, Malik and al-Awza'i reported through many theologians and groups of the predecessors that this hadith can be interpreted according to the way that befits it [Allah's majesty]. Based on this, they interpreted this hadith in two ways: the first is that maintained by Malik ibn Anas and others who said that Allah's mercy, commands and angles descend, such as to say the ruler did so and so if his followers fulfilled his commands. The second is metaphorically interpreted as Allah's omnipresence to respond to His servants' supplication and showering them with mercy.

So as a conclusion I would say that we should affirm that Allah descends, but be aware that HIS descent is unlike that of any of HIS creatures. Which means it is not bound by any limitation which may come in mind when we would project it on any of HIS creation.

 

[Shia Islam]

"something"

Things are physical and or material having a body. G-d is a Being having attributes. Right, please?

Regards

May be I have used the word "something" wrongly then.
As you rightly pointed out, In Shia Islam God is not material, not physical, and has no body. And his essence can't be comprehended by human.

On the other hand, God talks about himself, and about his creatures. And He is different from his creatures. In that sense it seems that I can say that: the Shiites believe in a personal God.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

May be I have used the word "something" wrongly then.
As you rightly pointed out, In Shia Islam God is not material, not physical, and has no body. And his essence can't be comprehended by human.

On the other hand, God talks about himself, and about his creatures. And He is different from his creatures. In that sense it seems that I can say that: the Shiites believe in a personal God.

Thanks

I agree with the contents in magenta above.

Regards