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Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Taken From 110 Ahadith Qudsi | Sacred Hadith Compilation | Qudsi Hadith

#72 'that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: In the last third of every night our Lord (SWT) descends to the lowermost heaven* and says: Who is calling Me, so that I may answer him? Who is asking Me, so that I may grant him? Who is seeking forgiveness from Me, so that I may forgive him. (This Hadith is sound and reported in Musnad of Abu Ya'la).'

Consider the fact that due to the spherical nature of the earth, it is day on one side and night on the other. That is, it is at the same time day and night. So is Allah descending or ascending?
Also consider that the concept of Allah descending to a physical location seems to imply that Allah is a physical being (thus capable of having a physical location).

Which brings me to the question, Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims?

Please discuss.

*Sometimes translated as "earth's sky" see also Hadith #105 which tells of Allah descending to the "lowest heaven" which it explains in brackets is the "(world's sky)"
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
Taken From 110 Ahadith Qudsi | Sacred Hadith Compilation | Qudsi Hadith

#72 'that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: In the last third of every night our Lord (SWT) descends to the lowermost heaven* and says: Who is calling Me, so that I may answer him? Who is asking Me, so that I may grant him? Who is seeking forgiveness from Me, so that I may forgive him. (This Hadith is sound and reported in Musnad of Abu Ya'la).'

Consider the fact that due to the spherical nature of the earth, it is day on one side and night on the other. That is, it is at the same time day and night. So is Allah descending or ascending?
Also consider that the concept of Allah descending to a physical location seems to imply that Allah is a physical being (thus capable of having a physical location).

Which brings me to the question, Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims?

Please discuss.

*Sometimes translated as "earth's sky" see also hadith #105 which tells of Allah descending to the "lowest heaven" which it explains in brackets is the "(world's sky)"
I would say no.

I'm quite sure the writer was scientifically ignorant by today's standards - as was everyone else at the time - but you can't call him illiterate if there was nothing written down yet for him to read.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I would say no.

I'm quite sure the writer was scientifically ignorant by today's standards - as was everyone else at the time - but you can't call him illiterate if there was nothing written down yet for him to read.
Ok, so lets shift the goal posts a bit. Were the early Muslims "scientifically ignorant" by today's standards?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Ok, so lets shift the goal posts a bit. Were the early Muslims "scientifically ignorant" by today's standards?
No brother was ignorant of what they involved self with. A technology of pyramid and Temples that involved trade and also trans mutation of metals from one product to another.

What the were ignorant of was how it affected the Earth atmospheric natural radio wave alpha transmitters, but learnt.

The Muslim community who revered the asteroid stone that saved the planet by incoming gas release, knew factually the science history. Knew that life was saved on Earth from the Sun attack on the One O earth body that kept their life alive....Earth. One body. One planet, and one spirit the STONE.

All brothers learnt in natural history the same life lesson.
 

Agnostisch

Egyptian Man
Taken From 110 Ahadith Qudsi | Sacred Hadith Compilation | Qudsi Hadith

#72 'that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: In the last third of every night our Lord (SWT) descends to the lowermost heaven* and says: Who is calling Me, so that I may answer him? Who is asking Me, so that I may grant him? Who is seeking forgiveness from Me, so that I may forgive him. (This Hadith is sound and reported in Musnad of Abu Ya'la).'

Consider the fact that due to the spherical nature of the earth, it is day on one side and night on the other. That is, it is at the same time day and night. So is Allah descending or ascending?
Also consider that the concept of Allah descending to a physical location seems to imply that Allah is a physical being (thus capable of having a physical location).

Which brings me to the question, Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims?
There are several scientific and logical mistakes.
1- As a result of the differences in timing on the surface of the earth, Allah always remains in the lower heavens and never ascends to the sky and does not settle on the throne at all, because the last third of the night is present on earth somewhere always as a result of the rotation of the earth around the sun.
2- The hadith mentions that Allah descends and this word has caused many problems, arguments and differences among scholars as a result of the ambiguity and irrationality of the word.
In fact, man has taken on God all the qualities that characterize himself, even the contradictory and opposite qualities, and imagined a imaginary imaginary force to provide him with psychological support.
In fact, all these human qualities are not worthy of God and do not apply to him.
3- Waking up at this time of the night to pray is medically unhealthy scientifically because the body needs rest and sleep a certain number of hours each night and intermittent sleep negatively affects health and who does not sleep enough hours is incomplete and can not make a proper decisions throughout the day.
wake up at night go to work in the morning to sleep at work!!!
Science has shown that the body needs total darkness at night to release melatonin, which plays an important role in regenerating the body's cells and increasing its vitality and delaying aging.
And that's how Hadith is against health.
 

Hellbound Serpiente

Active Member
This can easily be explained away as figurative speech. Think about it this way, this is my favorite example to get this point across --- in one of my favorite songs, Battle Cry by Imagine Dragons, there's a line that says --- "Stars are only visible in darkness." Of course, this is scientifically invalid as sun is also a star and it is visible in broad daylight, but the problem here is this is just a figurative way, allegory, to send a different message.

The entire Hadith can simply be said to be figurative speech, not meant to taken literally. In fact, the Holy Qur'an itself explicitly states that some of it's verses are plain and clearly understood. They’re the foundation of the Book. However, there are also other verses that are open to different interpretations. Those who have hearts inclined towards dissension dwell upon the verses that can be understood in more than one way. They try to cause division among the community by giving them their own misleading interpretations, but only God and insightful people know their true meaning:

"He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." Surah Ali 'Imran [3:7] - Al-Qur'an al-Kareem
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Taken From 110 Ahadith Qudsi | Sacred Hadith Compilation | Qudsi Hadith

#72 'that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: In the last third of every night our Lord (SWT) descends to the lowermost heaven* and says: Who is calling Me, so that I may answer him? Who is asking Me, so that I may grant him? Who is seeking forgiveness from Me, so that I may forgive him. (This Hadith is sound and reported in Musnad of Abu Ya'la).'

Consider the fact that due to the spherical nature of the earth, it is day on one side and night on the other. That is, it is at the same time day and night. So is Allah descending or ascending?
Also consider that the concept of Allah descending to a physical location seems to imply that Allah is a physical being (thus capable of having a physical location).

Which brings me to the question, Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims?

Please discuss.

*Sometimes translated as "earth's sky" see also Hadith #105 which tells of Allah descending to the "lowest heaven" which it explains in brackets is the "(world's sky)"
Yes, those people were certainly knowledgeable in science.
We now know, "Night" in sayings of the prophets is a metaphor for End of dispensations, when God manifests. Probably there are minor inaccuracies in translation of the Hadith, or a minor variation from what Muhammad said originally. But, to me, this Hadith is just an allusion to End time prophecy, when God comes to earth, and humanity meets Him.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This can easily be explained away as figurative speech. Think about it this way, this is my favorite example to get this point across --- in one of my favorite songs, Battle Cry by Imagine Dragons, there's a line that says --- "Stars are only visible in darkness." Of course, this is scientifically invalid as sun is also a star and it is visible in broad daylight, but the problem here is this is just a figurative way, allegory, to send a different message.

The entire Hadith can simply be said to be figurative speech, not meant to taken literally. In fact, the Holy Qur'an itself explicitly states that some of it's verses are plain and clearly understood. They’re the foundation of the Book. However, there are also other verses that are open to different interpretations. Those who have hearts inclined towards dissension dwell upon the verses that can be understood in more than one way. They try to cause division among the community by giving them their own misleading interpretations, but only God and insightful people know their true meaning:

"He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." Surah Ali 'Imran [3:7] - Al-Qur'an al-Kareem
What indication do we have that this Hadith was meant to be taken allegorically, or that it’s authors intended it as allegory?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
What indication do we have that this Hadith was meant to be taken allegorically, or that it’s authors intended it as allegory?
It struck me as fairly obviously allegorical when you originally quoted it.

The first thing one needs to do is consider what the real underlying message is. This is clearly not anything to do with astronomy, for a start. The message seems to me to be - I am not a muslim scholar, I hasten to add - about Allah actively seeking out someone to forgive. So, rather as with the bible Genesis stories, it is about Man's relationship with God, and the kind of God Allah is. It is not setting out to be some kind of alternative science manual.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It struck me as fairly obviously allegorical when you originally quoted it.

The first thing one needs to do is consider what the real underlying message is. This is clearly not anything to do with astronomy, for a start. The message seems to me to be - I am not a muslim scholar, I hasten to add - about Allah actively seeking out someone to forgive. So, rather as with the bible Genesis stories, it is about Man's relationship with God, and the kind of God Allah is. It is not setting out to be some kind of alternative science manual.
If it’s not anything to do with astronomy why mention descent etc at all, wouldn’t it be easier and clearer just to say, “Allah actively seeks out someone to forgive.”? Why add the unnecessary riddle? It seems as though if what they intended was as you suggested they were at best poor communicators.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
If it’s not anything to do with astronomy why mention descent etc at all, wouldn’t it be easier and clearer just to say, “Allah actively seeks out someone to forgive.”? Why add the unnecessary riddle? It seems as though if what they intended was as you suggested they were at best poor communicators.
Do you ever read literature? Have you no understanding of why people weave stories to convey the messages they want their readers to take to heart?

I can picture Allah descending, closer to the Earth, in the dark of the early morning - that time of the night, please note, when troubled souls often lie awake worrying about things that cause them feelings of guilt - to seek them out and offer them forgiveness. It's a lovely and consoling picture, it seems to me.

You get none of that at all if you just make a bald statement like the one you suggest. Your idea of religious imagery seems to be to write in the style of the instruction manual for a microwave oven! :D
 

Hellbound Serpiente

Active Member
What indication do we have that this Hadith was meant to be taken allegorically, or that it’s authors intended it as allegory?

Well, to be fair, you do have a point. However, one possible indication that I can think of as the Hadith being figure of speech is [Qur'anically] creation cannot withstand Allah's Presence, so it's impossible to creation to survive after Allah physically descend to the lowest heaven.

Take the story of Prophet Moses A.S. requesting Allah to reveal Himself and what followed then. I'll just copy/paste from the link as i am a little tired atm:

"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: ‘O my Lord! Show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.’ Allah said: ‘By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.’ When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: ‘Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.’" The chapter of al-Araf, verse 143

Moses said, (...) "O my Lord! Show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." That is, he begged Allah to remove the veil and allow him to see His face. (..) His Lord said, ‘By no means canst thou see Me (direct)’ (...)But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.’ Thereupon, (...) when his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, which is a relative manifestation, that is, He did not become manifest with all of His magnificence and absolute power but a piece from His power appeared and hit the mountain; (...) the mountain was broken into pieces and transformed into dust. According to the qira’ah (pronunciation) of Hamza, Kisai and Khalaf al-Ashir, it means "flattened/levelled", that is, the mountain disappeared and became flat land, like a camel without a hunch.

"Dakk": In fact, "dakk" means to crush something and make it like flour; its passive noun form is "madkuk" (...) means a camel without a hunch or (...) a hill. According to the first meaning, the mountain disappeared and according to the second meaning, it became a small hill. According to the famous view, this mountain was Mount Sinai but there is another view: It is stated that it was Mount "Zabiyr" or Mount "Arriyn" in Madyan, or another mountain that was levelled and disappeared. It means it was not the mountain that Hz. Musa was standing on but the mountain that he was looking at, opposite him.

To sum up, the mountain could not put up with the manifestation of its Lord and became "dakk". (...) Musa fainted and fell down. Two things happened with this manifestation: The first one is the mountain’s transformation into pieces and becoming levelled and the second one is Hz. Musa's fainting and falling down. That is, Musa fainted because of an indirect (relative) manifestation on the mountain; if it had been a full and absolute manifestation, the world and probably the whole universe would have been eliminated. Thus, (...) that was the wisdom behind the following statement: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct)."
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
... Your idea of religious imagery seems to be to write in the style of the instruction manual for a microwave oven! :D
Yeah pretty much. But only because these things are said to come from one who is All-knowing and should be able to see the obvious doubts and misgivings such unnecessary ambiguity naturally gives rise to. Unless you believe Allah wants us to have doubts I suppose.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, to be fair, you do have a point. However, one possible indication that I can think of as the Hadith being figure of speech is [Qur'anically] creation cannot withstand Allah's Presence, so it's impossible to creation to survive after Allah physically descend to the lowest heaven.

Take the story of Prophet Moses A.S. requesting Allah to reveal Himself and what followed then. I'll just copy/paste from the link as i am a little tired atm:

"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: ‘O my Lord! Show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.’ Allah said: ‘By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.’ When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: ‘Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.’" The chapter of al-Araf, verse 143

Moses said, (...) "O my Lord! Show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." That is, he begged Allah to remove the veil and allow him to see His face. (..) His Lord said, ‘By no means canst thou see Me (direct)’ (...)But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.’ Thereupon, (...) when his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, which is a relative manifestation, that is, He did not become manifest with all of His magnificence and absolute power but a piece from His power appeared and hit the mountain; (...) the mountain was broken into pieces and transformed into dust. According to the qira’ah (pronunciation) of Hamza, Kisai and Khalaf al-Ashir, it means "flattened/levelled", that is, the mountain disappeared and became flat land, like a camel without a hunch.

"Dakk": In fact, "dakk" means to crush something and make it like flour; its passive noun form is "madkuk" (...) means a camel without a hunch or (...) a hill. According to the first meaning, the mountain disappeared and according to the second meaning, it became a small hill. According to the famous view, this mountain was Mount Sinai but there is another view: It is stated that it was Mount "Zabiyr" or Mount "Arriyn" in Madyan, or another mountain that was levelled and disappeared. It means it was not the mountain that Hz. Musa was standing on but the mountain that he was looking at, opposite him.

To sum up, the mountain could not put up with the manifestation of its Lord and became "dakk". (...) Musa fainted and fell down. Two things happened with this manifestation: The first one is the mountain’s transformation into pieces and becoming levelled and the second one is Hz. Musa's fainting and falling down. That is, Musa fainted because of an indirect (relative) manifestation on the mountain; if it had been a full and absolute manifestation, the world and probably the whole universe would have been eliminated. Thus, (...) that was the wisdom behind the following statement: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct)."
It certainly seems possible, although forgive the minor quibble, but the passage seems to suggest it is possible for the Lord to be present without manifesting the Lord’s full glory. After all the Lord manifested to the mountain without manifesting to Moses.
 

Hellbound Serpiente

Active Member
It certainly seems possible, although forgive the minor quibble, but the passage seems to suggest it is possible for the Lord to be present without manifesting the Lord’s full glory. After all the Lord manifested to the mountain without manifesting to Moses.

It seems :)

Another thing we can use to explain away the scientific inaccuracy is that Allah is Omnipresence --- the presence of God everywhere at the same time. So, perhaps Allah can ascend and descend at the same time [if that makes sense]?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Yeah pretty much. But only because these things are said to come from one who is All-knowing and should be able to see the obvious doubts and misgivings such unnecessary ambiguity naturally gives rise to. Unless you believe Allah wants us to have doubts I suppose.
Not at all. Allegory is a literary technique used by Man since the beginning of history.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Taken From 110 Ahadith Qudsi | Sacred Hadith Compilation | Qudsi Hadith

#72 'that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: In the last third of every night our Lord (SWT) descends to the lowermost heaven* and says: Who is calling Me, so that I may answer him? Who is asking Me, so that I may grant him? Who is seeking forgiveness from Me, so that I may forgive him. (This Hadith is sound and reported in Musnad of Abu Ya'la).'

Consider the fact that due to the spherical nature of the earth, it is day on one side and night on the other. That is, it is at the same time day and night. So is Allah descending or ascending?
Also consider that the concept of Allah descending to a physical location seems to imply that Allah is a physical being (thus capable of having a physical location).

Which brings me to the question, Do the Hadith Qudsi demonstrate scientific illiteracy of the early Muslims?

Please discuss.

*Sometimes translated as "earth's sky" see also Hadith #105 which tells of Allah descending to the "lowest heaven" which it explains in brackets is the "(world's sky)"

Allah is Capable of descending and ascending at the same time, and of being in all places at once.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
This can easily be explained away as figurative speech. Think about it this way, this is my favorite example to get this point across --- in one of my favorite songs, Battle Cry by Imagine Dragons, there's a line that says --- "Stars are only visible in darkness." Of course, this is scientifically invalid as sun is also a star and it is visible in broad daylight, but the problem here is this is just a figurative way, allegory, to send a different message.

The entire Hadith can simply be said to be figurative speech, not meant to taken literally. In fact, the Holy Qur'an itself explicitly states that some of it's verses are plain and clearly understood. They’re the foundation of the Book. However, there are also other verses that are open to different interpretations. Those who have hearts inclined towards dissension dwell upon the verses that can be understood in more than one way. They try to cause division among the community by giving them their own misleading interpretations, but only God and insightful people know their true meaning:

"He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." Surah Ali 'Imran [3:7] - Al-Qur'an al-Kareem
Very good points.

Regards
 
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