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Do qualia (feelings) exist?

Do feelings exist?

  • YES!

    Votes: 19 82.6%
  • NO!

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total voters
    23

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Of course enaidealkul will object," Dennet never explicitly said that concepts do not exist. Only that only the physical exists!"
OK, define "concept" using only tangible physical words (mass,volume etc) to define "concept".
Yes, there can be correspondence. An on light might correspond to a switch in the "on" position. But is the light switch's position the meaning (definition) of an on light?
Google,"symbol grounding problem". I made the same point that Searle made.* A totally physical definition of "concept" is impossible.
* I made that point many posts ago. Unfortunately, enaidealkul conveniently ignored it.
 
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raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Did you know that when ice cream sales go up crime goes up? Should we restrict ice cream sales to reduce the crime rate?
Ice cream sales go up in summer. Crime goes up in summer because people are not at home and that makes them more vulnerable to mugging. Also, not being home makes their homes more vulnerable to burglary.
Similarly, when a light is on it is more likely that the switch is in the on position.
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Seriously, is there anything more obvious?!. That our feelings exist. And the fact that they cannot be defined( ineffable ) has nothing to do with their existence.
OK, enaidealkul wants my critique of Dennet. Okeydoke, Dennet's "argument " is that (google "mary's room") is that if one sees something there is no way to differentiate between what you feel and what you remember.
So "quining qualia" can be summed up.
1. Qualia do not exist ( or instantiate LOL)
2. Anything not definable,cannot exist.
3. Therefore, it is impossible to feel (reify) anything!
In other words Dennet's argument is that
1. The ineffable cannot exist.
2. Therefore, the ineffable cannot exist!:D
Stupid, silly stuff!
 
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Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Seriously, is there anything more obvious?!. That our feelings exist. And the fact that they cannot be defined( ineffable ) has nothing to do with their existence.
OK, enaidealkul wants my critique of Dennet. Okeydoke, Dennet's "argument " is that (google "mary's room") is that if one sees something there is no way to differentiate between what you feel and what you remember.
So "quining qualia" can be summed up.
1. Qualia do not exist ( or instantiate LOL)
2. Anything not definable,cannot exist.
3. Therefore, it is impossible to feel (reify) anything!
In other words Dennet's argument is that
1. The ineffable cannot exist.
2. Therefore, the ineffable cannot exist!:D
Stupid, silly stuff!

Yeah, none of this silliness has anything to do with Dennett or eliminativism. This thread is absolutely pointless, you have no interest in honest discussion, and an absolute aversion to learning anything. Best of luck to you, I've lost all interest in going around in circles any more.
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
1. Visualizing a triangle is a private experience.
2. Therefore, a private experience exists.
Are you saying that 2 does not follow from 1? Or are you saying that 1 is untrue? If visualizing a triangle is not a private experience, the triangle in your mind can be seen by other people and that is absurd! Or are you saying that a valid syllogism with true propositions does not inevitably lead to a true conclusion?
:facepalm:
The syllogism above proves that private experiences exist and that Dennet is wrong because he believes that private experiences do not exist.
Enaidealukal reminds me of the pseudo-intellectuals I met at university. They would pontificate about “modes of alienation” and “paradigm shifts” but when confronted by a syllogism (that has the obviousness of arithmetic) would become silent.
Enaidealukal objects to my syllogism because it doesn’t take into consideration the subtleties of Dennet’s “paradigm shift”. Suppose someone said,
• Let a=b.
Then,
A^2=ab
Then
A^2+A^2 = A^2 +ab
Then
2a^2=a^2+ab
Then
2a^2-2ab=a^2+ab-2ab
Then
2a^2-2ab=a^2-ab
Then
2(a^2-ab)=1(a^2-ab)
Then,
Cancelling the (a^2-ab) from both sides gives
1=2!
I do not need to know the subtleties of his argument to know that it is invalid. (In this case one illegitimately has divided by zero). Similarly,
1. Private experiences do not exist.
2. Visualizing a triangle is a private experience.
3. Therefore, visualizing a triangle is not possible.
Proves that Dennet’s position (1) is not true because it leads inevitably to the absurd conclusion (3). Anyway, back to the original syllogism,
1. Visualizing a triangle is a private experience.
2. Therefore, a private experience exists.
Dennet explicitly says that private experiences do not exist. Is Enaidealukal claiming that if one understands the subtleties of Dennet’s “paradigm shift” one realizes that Dennet did not mean precisely what he said? Is he saying that Dennet would agree with 1?!::D
As I have said before, Dennet loves playing games with words and redefining terms in the middle of his argument. For example, Dennet has a fluctuating definition of “private”. The accepted definition of “private” (exemplified in my syllogism) is something that is only experienced by an individual. Unfortunately, Dennet’s definition of “private’ (as exemplified in Quining Qualia ) is more creative and less stable.
In a nutshell Dennet’s argument is that Inverted Qualia (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) contradicts itself and therefore, “qualia” is an absurd and meaningless term. Why? Because we have no way of knowing if we are experiencing a new qualia or if our memory is suspect.
Smash your fingers with a hammer! Does it make sense to say, “I think I am in agony, but I might be wrong?” Of course not! Your awareness of your pain is immediate, obvious and private. No one can feel your pain. The fact that I am not certain that 2 years ago when I used the word “pain” I was using it appropriately has nothing to do with my current pain being private. In other words, Dennet’s argument is about our linguistic ability (our ability to apply words correctly) and not about qualia.
My objection to eliminative materialism has also become personal. My mother died last week.
[youtube]qM-gZintWDc[/youtube]
[Great Movie Scenes] Good Will Hunting - Park Scene - YouTube
For the eliminative there is nothing anything feels like * (the definition of qualia) I know that it felt like something when my mom died!
* Knowledge argument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An eliminative will say that Mary has no new knowledge of what red is because there is nothing red feels like!
 
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raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Yeah, none of this silliness has anything to do with Dennett or eliminativism. This thread is absolutely pointless, you have no interest in honest discussion, and an absolute aversion to learning anything. Best of luck to you, I've lost all interest in going around in circles any more.

Typical enaidealukal, no argument ( my posts have arguments) . Only, raw thought wrong, me right!
Luckily, almost everyone can understand my post 305 ( actually I think even enaidealukal can understand!) He is just pretending to not understand because he has no counter arguments!
Enaidealukal, never offers us anything except statements of his opinion. He just assumes that we will accept what he says and he does not have to support his accusations ( mostly assertions of my stupidity and his brilliance, instead of actually engaging the arguments) because everyone knows that he is a genius and cannot be questioned!:facepalm:
 
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raw_thought

Well-Known Member
[FONT=&quot]Some amateur philosophers have the ability to ignore the obvious (my syllogism for example) in favor of superfluous rhetoric. I remember putting Heidegger’s ( I am in the camp that thinks that heidegger was a con man. He said facile things that sounded brilliant! http://www.philosophybro.com/2011/02/martin-heideggers-being-and-time.html ) arguments into working man’s English at university. The professor agreed with my synopsis. The class groaned, that is so facile. But it sounded smart when Heidegger said it! Similarly, ethical philosophers claim that you can be reactive but not proactive. For example, you can slowly starve your dying mom to death by removing her tubes but you cannot have the doctor poison her. DUH! It’s obvious that the opposite is true. Causing immediate death is far more humane then prolonged dying.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Some philosophers are so bound up in academese - definition and examples of academese that they forget that a valid syllogism with true propositions leads inevitably to a true conclusion. Which is basic logic 101 stuff. But academese sure sounds smart! I remember a class at university that EVERYONE said was a bear ( very very hard) . I simply translated the academese into working man's english. The actual subject was VERY easy to understand! I would translate," Social stratification is predicated on degrees of economic alienation" into, " poor people get less respect"! I got an "A" and was top of my class! And it was the easiest class I ever took!
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]
* FROM THAT SITE Bryan Garner notes that "Academese is characteristic of academicians who are writing for a highly specialized but limited audience, or who have a limited grasp of how to make their arguments clearly and specifically" (Garner's Modern American Usage, 2009).
 
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raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Yeah, none of this silliness has anything to do with Dennett or eliminativism. This thread is absolutely pointless, you have no interest in honest discussion, and an absolute aversion to learning anything. Best of luck to you, I've lost all interest in going around in circles any more.

You really should at least try to understand something before making a jerk of yourself. Ask questions at least. Oh, I forgot you know everything!
Ummm... perhaps my argument is wrong ( I do not think so) but your accusation that it has nothing to do with eliminativism is outrageously silly! So, my assertion that Dennet's argument regarding qualia is a tautology has nothing to do with eliminativism:D:facepalm::D:D?!
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
“That you here acknowledge that what Dennett is talking about is NOT what you're talking about- there being a physical triangle in your brain such that, e.g. a brain surgeon could open you up and find it there- shows that you understand, on some level, that you are not actually criticizing Dennett, but a gross strawman.”
enaidealukal
Here, I will try to make the obvious so simple that you can understand.
I am not saying that Dennet will say that there is a physical triangle in the person’s brain. I am saying that “ 1. Only the physical exists 2. Visualized triangles exist 3. Therefore, visualized triangles are physical and in the brain. Therefore, since Dennet must reject 3 ( if he has common sense) he must reject 1 ( his position) because 3 inevitably follows from 1.
Seriously, learn about syllogisms and basic logic. I was not proposing a strawman!
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Here, I’ll try to make it even simpler,
Suppose Joe and I are observing birds.
Joe: I just realized that all 2 legged creatures have wings.
Me: If that is true, you must say that you have wings because you are a 2 legged creature.
If Joe is normal he will say, “Yes, you are correct. You just proved that my proposition (that all 2 legged creatures have wings) is false.
If Joe is crazy he will yell,” Strawman! Strawman! I never said that I have wings!”
Can’t you see that continuously shouting “strawman” is irrational?
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Response to post 311
Here, I’ll try to make it even simpler,
Suppose Joe and I are observing birds.
Joe: I just realized that all 2 legged creatures have wings.
Me: If that is true, you must say that you have wings because you are a 2 legged creature.
If Joe is normal he will say, “Yes, you are correct. You just proved that my proposition (that all 2 legged creatures have wings) is false.
If Joe is crazy he will yell,” Strawman! Strawman! I never said that I have wings!”
Can’t you see that continuously shouting “strawman” is irrational?
The accepted language of logic can be confusing because it has hidden assumptions. It is assumed that you ( not you personally Willamena, I am talking about any participant in a syllogism) are rational and stay on topic. For example,
1. All dogs are mammals.
2. All mammals are animals.
3. Therefore, you must say that all dogs are animals.
3 doesn’t mean that you must say that. You can say, “Gerbil”, “cucumber” or anything and/or remain silent. In logic “you must say X” means that if one is rational one must believe that "X" is true. Suppose you believe,
1. “A”
2. “A” implies “B”
If you accept “A” as true and you accept that “ A implies B” then if you are rational you must accept that “B” is true.
I have shown how Dennet's beliefs contradict themselves. He believes that private experiences do not exist. He also believes that one can visualize triangles.* Therefore, he must believe that visualizing a triangle is not a private experience. He must believe , if rational, that the visualized triangle can be seen by others. Of course Dennet will never say that a visualized triangle can be seen by others because that is obviously absurd. However, that means that the visualized triangle is a private experience!!! Therefore, he disproves his own position, that private experiences do not exist!
True, Dennet is unwilling to admit that his position leads to absurd conclusions ( that there is a physical triangle in a person's brain, is just one example ; 1. Only the physical exists 2. Visualized triangles exist 3. Therefore, the visualized triangle must be physical!). If he physically mouths the words, and admits publically that his position inevitably leads to silliness, is of no interest to me. The fact remains that I have proven his position to be self-contradictory and therefore absurd.
I attack a person's argument, not him personally. It is not my goal to prove that Dennet is a liar and/or moron. My goal is ( and has been achieved) to reveal that his position is self-contradictory. I am sure that Dennet is a fine human being. However, I find his position to be absurd.
One may say that I got personal when I accused Dennet of redefining his terms in mid-argument. My goal was to show that his strategy ( of redefining terms) is not a legitimate way to hide his blatant self-contradictions from the spotlight.
* To deny that one can visualize a triangle is insane.
 
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raw_thought

Well-Known Member
I think that Enaidealukal's confusion is because he does not understand the difference between validity and truth. One can make a valid ( rational) argument that is not true.
1. The U.S.A is a nation on Mars.
2. Detroit is a city in the U.S.A
3. Therefore, Detroit is a city on Mars.
If Dennet is rational his reasoning must end up with conclusions that even he rejects.* Therefore, his original proposition ( that there are no private experiences) must be false.
The only way a valid syllogism can have a false conclusion is if one or more of the propositions are false. In the above syllogism ( USA, Mars,Detroit) 1 or 2 must be false because the conclusion is false.
* That there is a physical triangle in one's brain when one visualizes a triangle.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
I think that Enaidealukal's confusion is because he does not understand the difference between validity and truth.
I doubt you honestly think that, since this has been explicitly covered in this thread, and is about as elementary a distinction as exists in logic.

If you honestly still feel like you have some substantive criticism of physicalism to offer, why not take it to a more appropriate forum, like PF? Oh wait, you've been banned from the only real philosophy forum on the internet. :facepalm:
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Here, I’ll try to make it even simpler,
Suppose Joe and I are observing birds.
Joe: I just realized that all 2 legged creatures have wings.
Me: If that is true, you must say that you have wings because you are a 2 legged creature.
If Joe is normal he will say, “Yes, you are correct. You just proved that my proposition (that all 2 legged creatures have wings) is false.
If Joe is crazy he will yell,” Strawman! Strawman! I never said that I have wings!”
Can’t you see that continuously shouting “strawman” is irrational?
Simply tell me why shouting "strawman" is appropriate. Or why my syllogisms are strawmen.
I have shown how Dennet's beliefs contradict themselves. He believes that private experiences do not exist. He also believes that one can visualize triangles.Therefore, he must believe that visualizing a triangle is not a private experience. He must believe , if rational, that the visualized triangle can be seen by others. Of course Dennet will never say that a visualized triangle can be seen by others because that is obviously absurd. However, that means that the visualized triangle is a private experience!!! Therefore, he disproves his own position, that private experiences do not exist!
True, Dennet is unwilling to admit that his position leads to absurd conclusions * ( that there is a physical triangle in a person's brain, is just one example ; 1. Only the physical exists 2. Visualized triangles exist 3. Therefore, the visualized triangle must be physical!).
Show me how my saying that Dennet must believe that physical triangles must be physical is a strawman. I am not saying that that is what he says, I am saying that he must believe that if his position is consistent and rational.
* That even he rejects. Even Dennet will say that there is no physical triangle in the person's brain.
 
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raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Anyway, you NEVER debate, only offer insults and superflous accusations. You really are immature. I will no longer "debate" teenagers.
 
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