• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do Mormons Support Obama

Bishka

Veteran Member
Why do you get so touchy when people criticize Obama?

Because most of it is baseless mud-slinging. There are very few that I've seen that have actually taken the time to research the issues and see what Barack Obama is actually about. The people that don't rely on what they've "heard" and what others say instead of going and educating themselves.

Don't you get touchy when people say things about Romney or the Church? I'm the same way about everyone, not just Obama. If I've seen facts and the people say, "Oh, well, I've heard this, and that...." and haven't bothered to even try, then that's where I get "touchy." I'm touchy when people choose to take hearsay over fact.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
I think Starfish gets a lot more than you give her credit for. It's a complicated situation, and there may be multiple "right" answers. While you or I may choose to follow other promptings, I'd never disparage someone for trusting that statements of the Lord's chosen leaders.

I'm not disparaging her, but I'm Starfish doesn't really understand (from my viewpoint) where these people are coming from.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I've thought a lot about what you're saying because I respect your opinion here in RF. Believe me, I'm really trying to "get it".
I've been thinking about what you've said, too, Starfish, and I don't mean to be critical of your stance. I've come to my present perspective over time and even now am not 100% comfortable with it. I realize that it's uncomfortable for members of the Church to hear me take issue with the leadership of the Church and, believe me, if we were talking doctrine, I wouldn't do so. I just see eternal salvation and civil rights as being two separate things entirely.

I'm going to approach this from a different angle. It's not really just about gay people. It's about families. We know in the gospel that the family unit is vitally important. I believe it is the Church's effort to protect the family, as it is defined by the Lord. Legalized gay marriage, or any other change in the traditional institution, starts to chip away, or distort, what the Lord intended. Civil unions is a step in this direction. Any law that protects the traditional family definition, I believe, is for the best for all. Unfortunately, this will be seen by some as a punishment. I see it as a necessary protection.
I know where you're coming from and, believe me, I too value the institution of marriage. I guess what I'm trying to take into account is that not everyone believes as I do on matters of morality. When I was a child, I remember my father saying, "You can't legislate morality." I didn't understand what he meant then, but I think I do now. You can't force someone to be morally clean by instituting a law that punishes him for his choices. Well, I guess you can, actually, because we've done just that. On the other hand, it hasn't really made a positive difference. It has hurt a lot of people but I don't know that it has really helped anyone. I try to imagine a gay couple moving in next door to me. Whether they had the same rights under the laws of the land as I do would not affect me in any way, but it would certainly affect them.

Gays are still free to choose their lifestyle. No one is forcing anything upon them. There are legal benefits that can be put in place, if they so choose. But the sancitity of marriage and the family is paramount, above anyone's preferences.
I used to think that there were ways around the law, ways in which they could have the same legal rights as anyone else. I argued that point for a long time on RF before I finally realized that I didn't know what I was talking about. I used to say that I was opposed to same-sex marriage, but would be in favor of civil unions. Finally, I came to realize that it's a whole lot more complicated than I had ever known, and that it doesn't work legally the way I had always assumed it did.

At this point, I don't care what it's called; I just believe in equality under the laws of the land and I don't see that equality as existing today. I don't see the sanctity of my own marriage as being compromised by permitting two other people -- regardless of their sexual preference -- from entering into a legal contract whereby their rights are protected. The union between a same-sex couple is not going to be a marriage in the eternal sense of the word, as we understand that sacred union to be part of God's plan, and nothing we can do is going to change that. What we can do is make people's mortal lives as free from discrimination and exclusion as possible. That is something we've been commanded to do.

I'm saying this with the greatest desire to understand both sides. But in the end, I have to go with the Prophet.
I know. I appreciate your effort to see the other side of the issue. If it were two years ago, we probably wouldn't even be having this decision. I've just thought a lot about it since joining RF and talking to so many people who have caused me to reconsider.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Because most of it is baseless mud-slinging. There are very few that I've seen that have actually taken the time to research the issues and see what Barack Obama is actually about. The people that don't rely on what they've "heard" and what others say instead of going and educating themselves.

Don't you get touchy when people say things about Romney or the Church? I'm the same way about everyone, not just Obama. If I've seen facts and the people say, "Oh, well, I've heard this, and that...." and haven't bothered to even try, then that's where I get "touchy." I'm touchy when people choose to take hearsay over fact.
But was there any reason with getting touchy with what I posted? None of my posts contained "mud-slinging" and in none of them did I insult Obama. I was respectful and asking questions that I had not found an answer to yet.

To day I found a video of Obama denouncing his Preachers statements which is exactly what I was looking for, making his Preacher a non-issue now. However, I still find it strange that, even though he had attended that church for 20(?) years, Obama said he had never heard these things from his Preacher till they appeared in the news.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
To day I found a video of Obama denouncing his Preachers statements which is exactly what I was looking for, making his Preacher a non-issue now. However, I still find it strange that, even though he had attended that church for 20(?) years, Obama said he had never heard these things from his Preacher till they appeared in the news.

I posted about this in the other thread. I don't believe him. I don't believe that he didn't know what his preacher had been saying. Reverend Wright's were very public and very loud statements. Word gets around.
So, for me, Reverend Wright's views are not the issue. It's Obama's denial that he knew that bothers me. If they're not okay now (evidenced by Obama's vehement denouncement), why were they okay before?
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Anybody bother to look at Doctrine and Covenants 134?

D&C 134 does not say that the Church should not take a stance on moral issues and encourage members to support the church, when they go to the polls to vote on those moral issues.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
I posted about this in the other thread. I don't believe him. I don't believe that he didn't know what his preacher had been saying. Reverend Wright's were very public and very loud statements. Word gets around.
So, for me, Reverend Wright's views are not the issue. It's Obama's denial that he knew that bothers me. If they're not okay now (evidenced by Obama's vehement denouncement), why were they okay before?

If your mother was in Reverend Wright's place, what would you do?

Another posted something here at RF and I think he said it very well

It really doesn't matter what views Obama's pastor has. Here in america we have people who hold all kinds of views, and we like them, often, anyway. I love my mother, for example, but I disagree with her views on many things. Yet I see no reason that I should need to go around "disavowing" things that she says. And I would take offense at anyone who suggested to me that I should.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
D&C 134 does not say that the Church should not take a stance on moral issues and encourage members to support the church, when they go to the polls to vote on those moral issues.

Yet it does say in the preface in describing the verses the following:

Religious societies should not exercise civil powers

and in verse 9

9 We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government,
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Yet it does say in the preface in describing the verses the following:



and in verse 9

I don't agree with your interpretation. For a religious society to exercise civil power the government would have to give civil power to that organization. An example would be to replace Congress with the Quorum of the Twelve. Whatever laws the Twleve pass become binding on the U.S. That would be mingling church and state and would be allowing religious institutions to exercise civil authority. However, a church is free, and not in violation of D&C 134, to take a public stance on a moral issue and to encourage the members to vote a certain way on that issue. In this case, it's the will of the people that prevails in law making. If the majority of voters support a church's position on the subject, then in a sense that religious society did influence public policy, but not in violation of D&C 134. It exercised influence consistent with freedom of religion and consistent with the concept of "one man, one vote".
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

"We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

I don't believe that this warning, prophesy, and call to government officers to promote measures that protect the family, is a violation of D&C 134. Do other LDS think it is a violation?
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
But Obama is denouncing the statements NOW. Why is that?

Quite possibly because he's been forced too.

Every think of that?

If your mother said something like this and then you decided to run for president, would you have said anything before you had decided to run for president?
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
So then I'm wrong?

Or can I be right?

I like you. But, I don't always understand you. What do you mean by this question? In my opinion you are mistaken about D&C 134. However, I see nothing in church doctrine that keeps you from supporting Obama, if he's your man.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Quite possibly because he's been forced too.

Every think of that?

If your mother said something like this and then you decided to run for president, would you have said anything before you had decided to run for president?

Doesn't this make you question his principles? If, as Obama says, Wright's statements were so wrong, then why weren't they wrong before? Why would he expose his daughters to such explosive statements if they were so objectionable?

Did Obama keep quiet before because of his affection and loyalty for the reverend? If so, where is that affection and loyalty now? Is he selling out? Forced to toss aside his 20 year long friend, uncle figure, and mentor, for an election? What kind of friend is he?

How do you explain this?
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Doesn't this make you question his principles? If, as Obama says, Wright's statements were so wrong, then why weren't they wrong before? Why would he expose his daughters to such explosive statements if they were so objectionable?

Did Obama keep quiet before because of his affection and loyalty for the reverend? If so, where is that affection and loyalty now? Is he selling out? Forced to toss aside his 20 year long friend, uncle figure, and mentor, for an election? What kind of friend is he?

How do you explain this?

It's a hard place to be in running for president, don't you think?

Like many LDS members asked the world to do for Romney.

Give the guy a break.

---

On a side note, I doubt I'll be coming to this forum much longer, I see I am not welcome and that my ideas and the way I view the Church are not accepted.
 
Top