Do bible gods moral laws ever change?

[Firenze]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

 

[1213]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

I don't think new covenant removed any laws. The dietary law is the same, one should not eat anything unclean. In the new covenant some foods may be cleaned and therefore eating them doesn't violate the rule not to eat unclean food. If one thinks the food is not clean, he should not eat it.

 

[Firenze]

I don't think new covenant removed any laws. The dietary law is the same, one should not eat anything unclean. In the new covenant some foods may be cleaned and therefore eating them doesn't violate the rule not to eat unclean food. If one thinks the food is not clean, he should not eat it.

So all male Christians must be circumcised?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

Weather is more predictable than any biblical law.

 

[McBell]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

Define change.

More specifically, I am wondering if by "change" you mean the God changed it officially in the Bible or not.

One prime example would be slavery...
I do not recall anywhere in the Bible where God condemns it, so even though we humans have decided it is a bad thing, I am unaware of God declaring it a bad thing.

 

[Firenze]

Weather is more predictable than any biblical law.

Well, Judaism touts 613 mitvot - 'commandments' with many being ceremonial, like circumcision, and others being moral, like the requirement to kill homosexuals and even disobedient children. I had thought that the New Covenant had deleted at least these 2 moral laws, since Christians obviously don't practice them. But again - when I speak to Christians, they have insisted that only dietary and ceremonial laws were thrown out - which is why they eat pork and avoid circumcision at their leisure - but that ALL moral laws are still intact, because "Gods moral laws never change", which is how they justify their homophobia - among many other things. So I'm curious about this disconnect. Are Christians simply in error here?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

I'm going to speak for myself only, since Jews hold different opinions on this question.

I think that morality is objective -- the something can be objectively wrong even if I think it is okay, and vice versa.

I also think that our understanding of what is moral has grown with time. For example, for most of history, slavery has been acceptable. So has been treating women like chattel. But our consciousness has grown.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

I'm going to speak for myself only, since Jews hold different opinions on this question.

I think that morality is objective -- the something can be objectively wrong even if I think it is okay, and vice versa.

I also think that our understanding of what is moral has grown with time. For example, for most of history, slavery has been acceptable. So has been treating women like chattel. But our consciousness has grown.

 

[1213]

So all male Christians must be circumcised?

Yes, in this way:

For he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh; but he is a Jew that is one inwardly, and circumcision is of heart, in spirit, not in letter; of whom the praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

 

[Firenze]

Yes, in this way:

For he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh; but he is a Jew that is one inwardly, and circumcision is of heart, in spirit, not in letter; of whom the praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

Yes, so actual circumcision was changed to something else just for Christians. What about moral laws?

 

[ppp]

I'm going to speak for myself only, since Jews hold different opinions on this question.

I think that morality is objective -- the something can be objectively wrong even if I think it is okay, and vice versa.

I also think that our understanding of what is moral has grown with time. For example, for most of history, slavery has been acceptable. So has been treating women like chattel. But our consciousness has grown.

Did you mean objective -> referencing a single standard
Or absolute -> universal and immutable

 

[InChrist]

So all male Christians must be circumcised?

Circumcision was a ceremonial law specifically for Israel, instituted by God as a sign of the covenant He made with the Israelites. It was/is not applicable to those born again to new life in Christ during this church period, the age of grace.


This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
Genesis 17:10-11

 

[InChrist]

Well, Judaism touts 613 mitvot - 'commandments' with many being ceremonial, like circumcision, and others being moral, like the requirement to kill homosexuals and even disobedient children. I had thought that the New Covenant had deleted at least these 2 moral laws, since Christians obviously don't practice them. But again - when I speak to Christians, they have insisted that only dietary and ceremonial laws were thrown out - which is why they eat pork and avoid circumcision at their leisure - but that ALL moral laws are still intact, because "Gods moral laws never change", which is how they justify their homophobia - among many other things. So I'm curious about this disconnect. Are Christians simply in error here?

The laws are not thrown out. Everyone is accountable to God’s laws and perfect standards…yet all fall short and fail to keep or meet these (Romans 3:23).
Those who are saved by Jesus Christ are justified and have met the requirements of the law through the perfect righteousness of Christ, not their own.


But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:21-26

 

[InChrist]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

God’s moral laws do not change. The issue is discerning who, where, when and why the dietary and ceremonial requirements were instituted and for what purpose. One cannot read the scriptures and apply everything across the board to everyone, in every situation, throughout history, rather it important to “rightly divide” ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) the scriptures to understand them.


Paul’s final comment in 2 Timothy 2:15 is helpful because it tells us what success looks like in the study of the Word: to be “rightly dividing” the Word of truth (NKJV). The Greek word translated as “rightly dividing” is orthotomounta—ortho means “right or proper,” and tomountameans “to cut.” Literally, success in handling the Word is to cut it properly or correctly. This is farming imagery, as a farmer who is plowing a field would seek to cut straight furrows in order to plant rows of seed. When plowing, a farmer would look at a point on the other side of the field and focus on that point to ensure the line cut in the dirt was straight. This is what the good student of the Word is doing, as well: remaining focused on the goal or outcome and being diligent to handle the Word of God properly. To rightly divide the Word of truth is to “cut it straight.”

What does it mean to be rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean to be rightly dividing the word of truth? What is the meaning of 2 Timothy 2:15?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Did you mean objective -> referencing a single standard
Or absolute -> universal and immutable

I mean that that ethical rules exist outside ourselves and are not dependent on our perception to exist. They are part of the fabric of the universe.

 

[exchemist]

I'm told that although the New Covenant removed some or all of ceremonial and dietary laws, Christians I know insist that the moral laws never change. Do Christians here agree?

It is clear from the gospels that Christ set new standards, in some ways at variance with the Old Testament teaching, or at any rate the way it was being interpreted in his day. For example the "eye-for-an-eye" approach to retributive justice, in Exodus and Leviticus, was replaced by his new instruction to "turn the other cheek", in St. Matthew's gospel.

But I'm a bit unclear about the concept of "moral law". I've always seen morality and law as distinct.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Define change.

More specifically, I am wondering if by "change" you mean the God changed it officially in the Bible or not.

One prime example would be slavery...
I do not recall anywhere in the Bible where God condemns it, so even though we humans have decided it is a bad thing, I am unaware of God declaring it a bad thing.

Well, it’s only bad when it happens to Hebrews.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is clear from the gospels that Christ set new standards, in some ways at variance with the Old Testament teaching, or at any rate the way it was being interpreted in his day. For example the "eye-for-an-eye" approach to retributive justice, in Exodus and Leviticus, was replaced by his new instruction to "turn the other cheek", in St. Matthew's gospel.

But I'm a bit unclear about the concept of "moral law". I've always seen morality and law as distinct.

I suspect that it was not Jesus' intent to overthrow retributive justice in society. I think his advice to turn the other cheek (which I think is just horrible advice) was meant for our private lives. It makes no sense to eradicate societal justice -- if we take away the eye for an eye justice system, people will inevitably return to the private vengeance system, which is two eyes for an eye, plus the eyes of your wife and kids.

 

[exchemist]

I suspect that it was not Jesus' intent to overthrow retributive justice in society. I think his advice to turn the other cheek (which I think is just horrible advice) was meant for our private lives. It makes no sense to eradicate societal justice -- if we take away the eye for an eye justice system, people will inevitably return to the private vengeance system, which is two eyes for an eye, plus the eyes of your wife and kids.

Well the eye for an eye principle is not followed in any civilised country, so far as I know. And in the better run countries, those with lower crime rates, criminals are rehabilitated by the justice system to reduce the likelihood of re-offending. But I take your point that society does not just turn the other cheek.

 

[Firenze]

God’s moral laws do not change.

That's what I've heard. So since one of these moral laws is that homosexuals should be killed - why don't either Jews or Christians obey this law?