Divine Revelation or Delusion

[prometheus11]

Carlita, an EEG would seem to be an unbiased, objective determiner, but it would be tough to carry out those trials to determine if there was a difference. Also, even if there were two different types of EEG results, it would be tough to verify that one result was caused by divine revelation.

Brain studies like you describe are quite interesting.

....

I am so sorry about your illness. Blessings to you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita, an EEG would seem to be an unbiased, objective determiner, but it would be tough to carry out those trials to determine if there was a difference. Also, even if there were two different types of EEG results, it would be tough to verify that one result was caused by divine revelation.

Brain studies like you describe are quite interesting.

....

I am so sorry about your illness. Blessings to you.

I agree, it would be tough. People have been distraught over DR just as some dellusions. The dellusioned may live healthy lives with their dellusions just as an DR person.

Unless there is a DR-DSM specifically to tell us the difference, I wouldnt know where else to start.

It was worth a shot.

Thank you.

Blessings

 

[Muffled]

I'm not asking about "processing information correctly."

Is your claim that logic can determine whether an idea is divine revelation or delusion?

I believe it does not help much beforehand. For instance Abraham was instructed to sacrifice the son God had given him. That is illogical. However at the end Abraham was prevented from going through with it and God said it was a test. That is logical.

Once while I was a t work God told me to take off my clothes and run around naked. I consider that pretty illogical. After freaking out for a few minutes thinking I would have to do it He told me He was joking. It is conceivable and therefore logical that God has a sense of humor.

 

[prometheus11]

How did you know God was speaking to you at all?

How did you rationalize that God wasn't testing your rapidity of compliance?

If you had immediately complied, do you think God would have worked it out for his glory and rewarded your immediate obedience?

 

[Muffled]

Given the infinite to one odds that all "revelation" and miracles are simply hearsay in the form of mythology or self-promoting fiction, I think delusion is just another word for blind faith, where the blindness is self induced.

I believe I would like to know what you base your odds on. Do you have an account of how many things were actually witnessed and how many were just rumor?

I believe there is no such thing as blind faith. There is just faith. By its nature it is blind because it does not see the future.
I believe it is not delusion because delusions are usually contemporary. However I suppose it would be possible for a prediction to be a delusion but the future will reveal whether it is or not.

 

[Muffled]

Muffled said:
I believe logic can show whether a person is processing information correctly or not.

Kelly said:
That's a problem for many in the bible, though. Logic through the eyes of irrational people will look logical when it's not.

It's like the claim that Jesus is sinless when objective reading shows he sins all the time. Irrational people will want to hold on to the sinless claim despite contrary evidence.

Muffled Responds:
I believe there is no contrary evidence. I believe there are some who would like to look at the word perversely to try to make Jesus look sinful.

 

[Parsimony]

I can think of a couple of ways that a deity could ensure that His/Her receivers are sure that they aren't just hallucinating:

(1) Reveal themself and their message in front of several people simultaneously. Hallucinations only affect one mind at a time.
(2) Reveal knowledge that could not have been hallucinated (i.e. detailed information that could not have been known by the receiver such as the exact date, time, magnitude and epicenter location of an earthquake, along with the monetary damage caused and the number of lives lost. The more details, the better).

 

[prometheus11]

I believe I would like to know what you base your odds on. Do you have an account of how many things were actually witnessed and how many were just rumor?

I believe there is no such thing as blind faith. There is just faith. By its nature it is blind because it does not see the future.
I believe it is not delusion because delusions are usually contemporary. However I suppose it would be possible for a prediction to be a delusion but the future will reveal whether it is or not.

So the only difference between accepting an idea as "divine revelation" or "delusion" is what you decide to believe?

I agree.

And people locked up in padded rooms right now agree with both of us on this point.

 

[Muffled]

So the only difference between accepting an idea as "divine revelation" or "delusion" is what you decide to believe?

I agree.

And people locked up in padded rooms right now agree with both of us on this point.

I don't know by what reasoning you could ever reach that conclusion.

People in padded cells don't seem to be able to make reasonable deductions.

 

[prometheus11]

I don't know by what reasoning you could ever reach that conclusion.

People in padded cells don't seem to be able to make reasonable deductions.

Are you saying that they don't believe their delusions/divine revelations?

(Obviously I am referring to people who are convinced of the reality of ideas which cannot be concretely confirmed).

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I believe this verse explains it:

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,

This is not adequate. From the mouths of His own "sheep" I have heard tale of "a season" in which a particular pastor's wife (she was the one relating this tale, mind you) felt that God was very strongly telling her to undertake a particular journey - one that would cost her family greatly and keep them separated for much of the duration. She was plagued for almost a year with this idea, and insisted and indeed fully believed, at the time, that it was God informing her that she needed to partake. However, a year later, when the fruits needed to sustain her journey were no more prevalent than at the time a year prior, she gave up on the idea. And do you know what the story was she used to rationalize this apparent disobedience to God? That Satan/The Enemy/the devil was the one planting those messages in her mind all along.

It was at this moment in the sermon that I got a very sour taste in my mouth toward the woman. I mean - how does one tell the difference? If the visions/thoughts/DELUSIONS can be that convincing? Scary thought. Seems much easier to simply not listen to any of the voices in your head telling you to do things, if you ask me.

And my ultimate point being: The sheep DO NOT know the shepherd. Or maybe you'd rather dismiss this pastor's wife as simply delusional? I guess that is the easy way out.

 

[Muffled]

This is not adequate. From the mouths of His own "sheep" I have heard tale of "a season" in which a particular pastor's wife (she was the one relating this tale, mind you) felt that God was very strongly telling her to undertake a particular journey - one that would cost her family greatly and keep them separated for much of the duration. She was plagued for almost a year with this idea, and insisted and indeed fully believed, at the time, that it was God informing her that she needed to partake. However, a year later, when the fruits needed to sustain her journey were no more prevalent than at the time a year prior, she gave up on the idea. And do you know what the story was she used to rationalize this apparent disobedience to God? That Satan/The Enemy/the devil was the one planting those messages in her mind all along.

It was at this moment in the sermon that I got a very sour taste in my mouth toward the woman. I mean - how does one tell the difference? If the visions/thoughts/DELUSIONS can be that convincing? Scary thought. Seems much easier to simply not listen to any of the voices in your head telling you to do things, if you ask me.

And my ultimate point being: The sheep DO NOT know the shepherd. Or maybe you'd rather dismiss this pastor's wife as simply delusional? I guess that is the easy way out.

I believe a pastor's wife is not immune from delusion. However There could be other explanations such as the one she rendered. Also it is possible that God was testing her.

I believe this varies. With prophecy it is not as cut and dried. I have reached this point in my walk with Jesus but it was not always so even though I was a Christian.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I believe a pastor's wife is not immune from delusion. However There could be other explanations such as the one she rendered. Also it is possible that God was testing her.

I believe this varies. With prophecy it is not as cut and dried. I have reached this point in my walk with Jesus but it was not always so even though I was a Christian.

Well, we are definitely in agreement that a pastor's wife is not immune to delusion, I can tell you. Apart from that I am not too sure there is much we would be in agreement on as regards the subject.

 

[Muffled]

Well, we are definitely in agreement that a pastor's wife is not immune to delusion, I can tell you. Apart from that I am not too sure there is much we would be in agreement on as regards the subject.

I believe I see this on this site a lot. A person believes what he wishes and doesn't want to accept any contrary facts.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I believe I see this on this site a lot. A person believes what he wishes and doesn't want to accept any contrary facts.

That's an excellent definition of a delusionist, and it would apply to all revealed religions.

 

[Muffled]

That's an excellent definition of a delusionist, and it would apply to all revealed religions.

I don't believe it is because I believe those people are aware that they are avoiding rational arguments. I believe they know what is real but just do not wish to have to accept the reality.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I don't believe it is because I believe those people are aware that they are avoiding rational arguments. I believe they know what is real but just do not wish to have to accept the reality.

Yes, and that's true for all revealed religionists, particularly in this modern age with widely available rational knowledge.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I believe I see this on this site a lot. A person believes what he wishes and doesn't want to accept any contrary facts.

"Facts". Nice.

 

[cambridge79]

When asked about these differences the reply was delusions are somewhat predictable and cause negative actions but divine revelation causes positive results.

the first result of the divine revelation abrham had was that he almost killed his son.
the first result of the devine revelation moses had on top of sinai is that when he went down the mountain the first thing he did was to committed a slaughter.
So i assume these could be considered negative actions so i must assume that if this is the standard to apply than we have to assume that judaism, christianity and islam are all delusions.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, and that's true for all revealed religionists, particularly in this modern age with widely available rational knowledge.

I believe that is a false assessment based on a bias without evidence.