Disproving god with the laws of logic

[freethinker44]

Why can't Gods be subject to His own laws?

That is kind of what I am asking in the subject of this thread, only I ask it in a more pessimistic way.

How can god be subject to anything and still be god? If such a god existed the concept of omnipotence would be completely wrong, and as a consequence, the abrahamic faiths would be wrong as well, as their god is defined as omnipotent. As I said in several of these pages on this thread, if you are christian, jewish or muslim and you don't include omnipotence in your personal definition of god, then you are not a christian, jew or muslim.

 

[freethinker44]

Or we can keep "logic out of it and stick to the truth, that's better than logic unless of course we both agree that its logical that logic would be the truth.

Logic is only a path to the truth. Thinking without logic and reason is like trying to fix a car without using any tools.

 

[freethinker44]

Quite frankly anyone or thing that doesnt belisve in God aka a creator of this whole ball of wax, is the person with the most faith of all the religions. Congratulations!

You are the one making the claim, I am just telling you why it's wrong. Takes no faith to find fault with something, takes faith to believe something.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It seems very easy to evade certain questions by postulating limitations of human logic when it comes to beings such as god.

I would warn you of such easy statements. You see if you define our logic and "wisdom" as nonsense in the sight of some other being then you actually dismantle any supposed reasoning in any supposed scripture by the very same being.

Your "thats why Scripture says" ONLY makes sense if you rely on logic. If you don't you can't actually argue at all.

Hi ThereIsNoSpoon, understand your logic, but the point is the human mind is only capable of functioning according to conceptual reality and that is understood by the Source of the scripture which is beyond mortal conceptual reality.

It is my understanding that the higher wisdom can't be conveyed to humans in any conceptual way, and this is implied in the quoted scripture. IOW, human logic is being used as an expedient to explain that there is Divine wisdom beyond the ken of human logic,...

The Tao that can be described is not the Eternal Tao.

 

[Venatoris]

Hi ThereIsNoSpoon, understand your logic, but the point is the human mind is only capable of functioning according to conceptual reality and that is understood by the Source of the scripture which is beyond mortal conceptual reality.

It is my understanding that the higher wisdom can't be conveyed to humans in any conceptual way, and this is implied in the quoted scripture. IOW, human logic is being used as an expedient to explain that there is Divine wisdom beyond the ken of human logic,...

The Tao that can be described is not the Eternal Tao.

Hey ben d, I may be misunderstanding you here but if the higher wisdom of god is beyond the mental capacity of humans would this not invalidate everything that we think we know about god and what he wants from us? Even if god tried to pass on his knowledge to humanity through scripture his entire meaning would be skewed by our inability conceptualize this knowledge and add context to it.

 

[freethinker44]

Yes, this is another focus of this thread. God is supposedly beyond a certain level of comprehension by human minds, but you simply cannot say god is unknowable or completely beyond human understanding or every concept of god that we have would be wrong. So we must be able to uderstand god in some simple way, and it is this simple understanding that must be able to stand up to the rigors of logic, if it doesn't or can't, then whatever knowledge of god we don't know or understand would be irrelevant because if the simplest concept is invalid than the unknown extension of that concept is invalid. So, if god exists, he doesn't exist as any human understands him, ie. an omnipotent perfect being is logically impossible.



It is for this reason, that I say I am 100% sure god does not exist, because if god is simply the most powerfull, advanced being logically possible, then I say this being is not a god because I believe humans have the potential to one day (if we don't kill ourselves by then) become that advanced and evolved. And since I wouldn't consider myself a god or my ancestors or any other human a god, then I don't consider this being a god.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hey ben d, I may be misunderstanding you here but if the higher wisdom of god is beyond the mental capacity of humans would this not invalidate everything that we think we know about god and what he wants from us? Even if god tried to pass on his knowledge to humanity through scripture his entire meaning would be skewed by our inability conceptualize this knowledge and add context to it.

Hi Venatoris, the absolute Truth/Reality/God is on the other side of the concept, and can't be known directly through mental conceptualization. Scripture points out that no man has ever seen heaven, no man has ever seen God, etc., so all scripture can provide is a 'sign post', a 'map' if you like, but the signpost is not the destination nor is the map the actual territory.

So yes, there is much misunderstanding of scripture but for those with 'eyes' to see, those in whom the divine intuitive faculty is somewhat developed, then there is sufficient 'instruction' to allow with proper practice the realization of Divine destiny. But ultimately this destiny is not to do with the human being in this world, but that which is beyond.

 

[Humanistheart]

Scripture points out that no man has ever seen heaven, no man has ever seen God, etc., so all scripture can provide is a 'sign post', a 'map' if you like, but the signpost is not the destination nor is the map the actual territory.
.

What scripture says this?

Is this thread still on disproving god?

 

[freethinker44]

We are discussing how wel we can understand god right now, but yeah it's still about disproving god. Just need to get through some formalities first I guess.

 

[Thief]

I thought all of that was done long ago.

Is someone waiting for a photo, or a fingerprint?
God is spirit.
There won't be any tangible evidence, no equations.

This was never a science discussion.
This proof that everyone is waiting for, is a matter of faith.

 

[Humanistheart]

I thought all of that was done long ago.

Is someone waiting for a photo, or a fingerprint?
God is spirit.
There won't be any tangible evidence, no equations.

This was never a science discussion.
This proof that everyone is waiting for, is a matter of faith.

I disagree. The theistic religions own dogma disproves the existence of their god(s).

 

[Thief]

Another person's error is not your proving.

 

[Humanistheart]

Another person's error is not your proving.

I'm sorry, I don't undestand what you're saying here. Could you clarify?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What scripture says this?

Is this thread still on disproving god?

No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

But as Scripture says: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9

And no one has ever gone up to heaven but he who came down from heaven, the Son of man. John 3:13

 

[freethinker44]

No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

But as Scripture says: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9

And no one has ever gone up to heaven but he who came down from heaven, the Son of man. John 3:13

Honestly, no one here has claimed to see god, why do you keep posting verses that say that?

 

[Humanistheart]

No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

But as Scripture says: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9

And no one has ever gone up to heaven but he who came down from heaven, the Son of man. John 3:13

ben d, is this meant to disprove or defend the existence of god?

Also the first and last quotes are good examples of the innconsistencies of the bible, as there are books in which men saw god, and there are instances of people acending directly to heaven.

 

[Thief]

I suppose a personal experience could help here.

When I was in eighth grade, two fellow students were given a science topic to answer and report. What if gravity failed?
The discussion went back and forth, as everyone seemed to have some perspective. Then I took my turn.
I saw immediately in the look of their faces, what I had said.

Forty years later, and fairly recent, I was watching a report about our expanding universe and the role gravity plays, as the material portions extend the reach of that most basic force.
That scientist gave the same perspective as I did forty years ago.
He got some kind of award.

When an idea takes hold, it can become 'stuck'.
Dislodging the error, can be very difficult....especially when discussing a theological idea...a matter of faith....in a crowd of people who insist on the tangible proving......to prove what is not tangible.

 

[Humanistheart]

I suppose a personal experience could help here.

When I was in eighth grade, two fellow students were given a science topic to answer and report. What if gravity failed?
The discussion went back and forth, as everyone seemed to have some perspective. Then I took my turn.
I saw immediately in the look of their faces, what I had said.

Forty years later, and fairly recent, I was watching a report about our expanding universe and the role gravity plays, as the material portions extend the reach of that most basic force.
That scientist gave the same perspective as I did forty years ago.
He got some kind of award.

When an idea takes hold, it can become 'stuck'.
Dislodging the error, can be very difficult....especially when discussing a theological idea...a matter of faith....in a crowd of people who insist on the tangible proving......to prove what is not tangible.

Thief, I have no idea what relevance you think this has to the topic at hand, nor does it answer my previous question as to what your last post meant. I don't think I'll ask for clarification again, seeing as this is what I got. Instead I'll simply reiterate that there are several ways, primarlily the texts of the religions that contend that gods exist, that proves they in fact do not.

 

[Thief]

Okay...so you don't understand.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

ben d, is this meant to disprove or defend the existence of god?

No, it was posted because you requested it,... "What scripture says this?"
Please reread your post 1088 addressed to me!

As for your post freethinker44:

Honestly, no one here has claimed to see god, why do you keep posting verses that say that?

It was posted in response a request from Humanistheart post 1088, see above.

No offence but you could both do with some improved ability to pay attention, thank you for best attempt though, please feel free to carry on without my presence.