Didn't Satan Give Us Freewill?

[mr black]

in my book it says that Eve was perfect until Satan lead her astray.

From this came the Fall of Man.

Perfect is not capable of being led astray, otherwise not perfect or wasn't led astray, you can choose which.

 

[nnmartin]

I see , the good old drivel of semantics again...:sarcastic

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Martin, you never did define 'perfect' for us.

 

[nnmartin]

try looking in a dictionary - I have better things to do then enter a pointless debate over semantics.

 

[mr black]

I see , the good old drivel of semantics again...:sarcastic

You may need to talk to Pegg about that. At last count I think she had 37 definite definitions for perfect and 14 possibles with some waiting to make the list.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

try looking in a dictionary - I have better things to do then enter a pointless debate over semantics.

So, you're afraid to?

I didn't expect this from you.

Your definition varies from the one Pegg uses, doesn't it?

 

[idav]

if the serpent didnt tempt eve, perhaps she would never have felt tempted to eat. So in some way, the serpent did encourage the misuse of freewill. Before him, no other angel did so... but that doesnt mean that another angel may not have ever rebelled too.

However, we can be absolutely confident that if in the future (after God has destroyed satan and other rebellious ones) anyone, human or angel, who rebels will be cut off immediately before they have a chance to even act on their wrong desires.

It makes me think that the angel falling is a myth like that of the garden with humans falling. It wasn't necessary to bring in the angels as to the reason for temptation. Why would god put us under ransom like that? It would seem the debt still isn't paid.

 

[Pegg]

It makes me think that the angel falling is a myth like that of the garden with humans falling. It wasn't necessary to bring in the angels as to the reason for temptation. Why would god put us under ransom like that? It would seem the debt still isn't paid.

i could liken it to a salesman who comes to your door offering you a certain product. You may have seen the product before, but never thought of actually buying it....but now a salesman comes to your door and tells you how good it is and how it will benefit you and he explains all the ways you will be able to use it and how much better your life will be if you have it.

only by thinking about how the item will benefit you do you begin to consider it....then if you develop a desire for the product, you will buy it.

Perhaps you might have bought it with or without the salesmans encouragement, but we all know that salesmen are successful because they make us believe that the product is something that will improve our life....we will benefit from it...or we need it. Thats when it becomes a temptation. We are only tempted by what we desire.

this illustrates how the satan was merely selling the idea to Eve...he made her believe that she would be better off if she ate the fruit, and by considering that she formed a desire for it. But she didnt have the desire before satan enticed her.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Perfect is not capable of being led astray, otherwise not perfect or wasn't led astray, you can choose which.

There is a difference between 'absolute' perfection and 'relative' perfection.
Creation is in relative perfection to God's absolute perfection.

Adam originally had a perfectly healthy sound heart, mind and body.
Adam's leanings / if he wanted were toward righteousness.
Once choosing disobedience Adam's leanings \ were toward wrongdoing.
By Adam's choice he chose sin. Sin is imperfection that leads to death.

What does James [1vs13-15] say about one's own desire.

 

[nnmartin]

So, you're afraid to?

I didn't expect this from you.

Your definition varies from the one Pegg uses, doesn't it?

I think I joined this thread after that part of the debate.

anyway, I think delving into hardcore semantics in a relgious debate is futile.

what are the previous definitions given then?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

nnmartin RAFO


I think most people ((for those who are contemplating that free will even HAS preternatural origins)) have come to agree that (please correct me if I am wrong):

>> It was not Satan who gave free will; though he/she/it relies on us exercising that free will
>> Instead free will is obtained through our creation by 'God' either as a direct characteristic of intelligence or as some special 'gift'

The thread has since come to be more about how the will of this 'God' and our free will are related, centred around the Abrahamic God given the origins of this discussion.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I think I joined this thread after that part of the debate.

anyway, I think delving into hardcore semantics in a relgious debate is futile.

what are the previous definitions given then?

It wasn't merely semantics; there are several VERY different definitions and Pegg among possibly others would imply one definition but supposedly meant another, and would waffle back and forth cahnging at whim in order to escape logical problems. However, pinning her down her exact words were

Imperfection is seen in the action of the individual. If you do something according to the way God wants it does, it is considered perfection. If you fail to do the way God wants done, it becomes imperfect. so Eve was perfect while she maintained her obedience to God. From the point she disobeyed, she stopped doing things correctly, rightly, perfectly.... she was no longer in harmony with God.

So we have, not the normal concept of perfection meaning flawless and without error, but merely obedient. So the concepts of immortality, lack of disease and deformity and all the rest our normal concept of Biblical perfection, don't apply, according to her. Do you agree, or not? Because the actual meaning of words is important. When people murder their meanings we can have no real meaningful conversation. Just games and lies.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In Scripture Heathen Hammer the word perfection is used in a relative sense.

Actual meaning of words are important and, can't we often discern the meaning by context, by how the word is used?
Can't a teacher say that was a 'perfect report', and yet the report not be perfect in the absolute sense?
Perfect for the assignment, but not necessarily meaning that the report can't be improved upon somewhere.

We can express in English that a cup or glass is perfect to drink out of it.
We understand 'perfect' in that sense to mean perfectly suitable over drinking out of let's say a wheelbarrow or bathtub or toilet, etc.

A 'wedding ring' might Not be absolutely perfect, but it's a 'perfect ring' to use in a wedding ceremony.

So, both the Hebrew words and Greek words translated into English often carry the thought of meaning complete or without fault according to the standards set by the use of that grammar-rule speech or language.

Don't we often use perfect in a relative sense?
Did you ever hear the weatherman say tomorrow's weather should be perfect ?
Do those with authority over him take the action to condemn him for saying that,
or do they recognize that the weatherman is talking in a relative sense ?

Didn't some imperfect people in the Bible [Moses/Abraham/Job] choose a perfectly right course of action according to the standards God set for them?
Those in authority over the weatherman can conclude their weatherman did take a right course of action by expressing 'perfect weather'.
So, our Creator 'as Authority' can conclude following a right obedient course of action is perfect for his standards set for imperfect humans.

Did you know, according to Scripture, that in the future that mankind will be able to enjoy the 'perfect human sinless nature' that Adam lost ?

According to 1st John [3v8 B] Jesus will destroy or break up the works of the devil.
It was through disobedience that 'death' entered our world of mankind.
Jesus will bring an end to our last enemy 'death' by bringing death to nothing.
[1st Cor 15v26; Acts 24v15; Isaiah 25v8; Rev 21vs4,5]
By 'death' being undone, broken up, or destroyed makes the resurrection certain.
'No more death' means that mankind will once again have that original sinless nature
[Perfect physical health with a perfectly sound heart, mind and body] like Adam had before his downfall.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Funny but none of those meanings were the meaning intended by Pegg. It's interesting you go automatically to the same definitions I do, and yet neither of us used that which she wished to use.

And by 'interesting', of course, I mean 'perfect'.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would have to respectfully disagree on that. Perfect/perfection as the dictionary defines it includes bringing something to completion:

perfect [adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Example Sentences Origin.
adjective 1.conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.
2.excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.
3.exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.
4.entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.
5.accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.
verb (used with object) 18. to bring to completion; finish.
19. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless.
20. to bring nearer to perfection; improve.
21. to make fully skilled.
22. Printing . to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).
Origin:
1250–1300; < Latin perfectus, past participle of perficere to finish, bring tocompletion ( per- per- + -fec-, combining form of facere to do1 + -tus past participle suffix); replacing Middle English parfit < Old French < Latin as above
there are several ways the word 'perfect' or 'perfection' applies to the 'Adam and Eve story. And it is the right word to use.

Isn't what Pegg posted ^above^in harmony with having relative perfection ?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes, and I handled that back on page 17. At that point I was showing that the Hebrew word used at that point in the Genesis tale should not be translated as the English word 'perfect'. She then gave a list of all possible definitions, from English, for the word 'perfect', then proceeded to also conflate verb vs adjective usage, making up a long story as to why it could be used.

If one were contextually translating the specific line we referenced from Hebrew to English, 'perfect' was not the word to be used, if one were doing the translation properly.

When an English speaker is presented with the word 'perfect' they do not automatically imagine 'obedient' is the contextual meaning. When most Bible readers see that word, they imagine something related to flawlessness is its key. Because that is the default mental image. The 'definition' she is using is probably the most obscure.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......and God saw everything that he had made....it was 'very good'..... Gen 1v31

 

[Heathen Hammer]

"The Bible's been grossly mistranslated"

Heathen Hammer 2012:1.31

 

[nnmartin]

It seems to me that HH is just looking for holes to pick.

namely by resorting to semantics to try and discredit the Bible.

It's a bit like trying to attack a politician by commenting on his clothes or food preferences.

ie: lightweight.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Or about how a politician running on a platform of, say, Christian morality has multiple mistresses behind his wife's back.

Im not looking for holes, Im pointing the holes that already are there, out to you who delight in falling headfirst into them. You cannot blame me for the bad writing in the Bible, as much as you'd like to. Another great moral failing of the bible: blame the other guy.