Did you know Jesus is considered as a different god according to scripture?

[Ebionite]

Does anyone here value truth and honesty enough to discuss the various steps found in my study?

There are fairly straightforward disproofs of the doctrine of the Trinity: Moses as Elohim from Exodus 19:25-20:2 and the Trinitarian conflation of "Spirit of God" Ruach Elohim with "Holy Spirit" Ruach haQodesh.

 

[Sargonski]

It is not much different from the classic polytheism of some variations of Hinduism where Brahman is the Supreme Deity and other Gods are aspects of the Supreme Deity.

Performing supernatural and miraculous acts is another property of a Deity.

Jesus was an acclaimed wonder worker .. very diefied

 

[Soapy]

The early history of Hebrews is before ~700-600 BCE

A 'Stone' like God can have many names and still be a 'Stone' and God will still be God. YHWY remains a late short for Yod, Heh, Waw, and Heh, is known as the tetragrammaton, sometimes translated as Jehovah.

Yahweh | YHWH, Adonai, Elohim, Meaning, & Facts

Yahweh, name for the God of the Israelites, representing the biblical pronunciation of ‘YHWH,’ the Hebrew name revealed to Moses in the book of Exodus. The name YHWH, consisting of the sequence of consonants Yod, Heh, Waw, and Heh, is known as the tetragrammaton.

www.britannica.com

After the Babylonian Exile (6th century BCE), and especially from the 3rd century BCE on, Jews ceased to use the name Yahweh for two reasons. As Judaism became a universal rather than merely a local religion, the more common Hebrew noun Elohim (plural in form but understood in the singular), meaning “God,” tended to replace Yahweh to demonstrate the universal sovereignty of Israel’s God over all others. At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered; it was thus replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai (“My Lord”), which was translated as Kyrios (“Lord”) in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Masoretes, who from about the 6th to the 10th century CE worked to reproduce the original text of the Hebrew Bible, added to “YHWH” the vowel signs of the Hebrew words Adonai or Elohim. Latin-speaking Christian scholars replaced the Y (which does not exist in Latin) with an I or a J (the latter of which exists in Latin as a variant form of I). Thus, the tetragrammaton became the artificial Latinized name Jehovah (JeHoWaH). As the use of the name spread throughout medieval Europe, the initial letter J was pronounced according to the local vernacular language rather than Latin.


I do not believe in the Trinity. I believe in a Universal Source some called God or by many other names at different times in human history. In reality, God is unknowable and nameless. We know of the attributes of God through Progressive Revelation. From the fallible human perspective the claim of 'Truth' is very questionable considering the many diverse conflicting claims based on the Torah, Bible, and the other scriptures of the world. I do not believe YHWY translates to "I am." This is an interpretation of the scripture.

Yes God never changes, but the human view of God changes over time.

There are many problems with any absolute claims of 'Truth' concerning the Torah or the Bible such as the lack of provenance, consistency, and history of the ancient tribal scriptures compiled, edited, redacted, and written over a period of time from the perspective of ancient cultures. The conflicts with the reality of science and history are only the beginning of the problems.

I know we disagree, of course, but we both believe in the One and only One God, not Trinitarianism, polytheism or henotheism.

Yes, thank you for the agreement on the one true God. And in addition, the understanding that trinitarianism cannot be true in respect of its claim of multiple persons as ‘one God’.

Personally, it doesn’t concern me about the early history of the Hebrews. My interest starts only at the point where Abraham was called by this one true God to depart from his family and travel to a distant land by faith alone.

 

[Soapy]

There are fairly straightforward disproofs of the doctrine of the Trinity: Moses as Elohim from Exodus 19:25-20:2 and the Trinitarian conflation of "Spirit of God" Ruach Elohim with "Holy Spirit" Ruach haQodesh.

To make things clear in my discourse, I say ‘Spirit of God’ and press the point that ‘Holy Spirit’ is an incorrect and deliberating misleading title, which Trinitarians use to claim it as another ‘person’.

‘Spirit of God’ carries no claim or insinuation of another ‘person’! It is exactly what it says: The Spirit of the one true God.

 

[Sargonski]

To make things clear in my discourse, I say ‘Spirit of God’ and press the point that ‘Holy Spirit’ is an incorrect and deliberating misleading title, which Trinitarians use to claim it as another ‘person’.

‘Spirit of God’ carries no claim or insinuation of another ‘person’! It is exactly what it says: The Spirit of the one true God.

Yes, thank you for the agreement on the one true God. And in addition, the understanding that trinitarianism cannot be true in respect of its claim of multiple persons as ‘one God’.

Personally, it doesn’t concern me about the early history of the Hebrews. My interest starts only at the point where Abraham was called by this one true God to depart from his family and travel to a distant land by faith alone.

First off a small correction.. Terah and clan leave Ur to go to Canaan but end up settling in Harran .. which is where Terah dies. Abe leaves Harran but does so with his family .. he does not depart from his family - and he takes lot and a bunch of other people with him as well.

5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Harran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.

Now this "Spirit of the one True God" never shows up during Abraham's life .. God shows up directly to Abraham and occasionally there is an angel of the Lord who shows up. The God who calls on Abe to come to Canaan .. is the "Most High" God of the Canaanites "EL"

 

[Brian2]

2. "No God but me"?
"This is what Yhwh says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Yhwh of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.'" Isa 44:6

In the overall context of the bible He is saying he has no equal. There are obviously other gods as we will see. He even says, "Have no other gods besides me" Ex 20:3

Osiris was another god. It was not the real god, it was nothing real, but was a god because people served it.
Satan is god of this world for the same reason.
Angels are not real gods, they are like God in some ways and do the work of God and so are called gods.
Humans, like the judges of Psalm 82 are not real gods, they are just humans but they do the work of God and judge people, so they are called gods.
Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how about Him. He is the Son of God who is exactly like His Father and has the essence/nature of His Father.
He is probably the closest to God since God said that He gives His glory to nobody but Jesus has His glory, and God said to nobody is like Him, but Jesus is exactly like Him.

3. Other gods but not Yhwh
Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified—" John 10:34-35

"God(Yhwh) takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges" Ps 82:1

Jesus and Satan are both gods according to scripure but are not Yhwh
"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." 2 Cor 4:4

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1

But of course there is only one YHWH.
Is Jesus also called YHWH.
Jesus said that everything that the Father has belongs to Him, Jesus. (John 16:15) That would include the name of God, and yes we do see that the Son does inherit the Father's name, the name above all names. (Heb 1:4, Phil 2)
YHWH alone stretches out the heavens and spread the earth (Isa 44:24) but the heavens are the work of Jesus hands (Heb 1:10-12)
YHWH is the one coming to judge the earth, but the Father judges nobody but has left that to the Son.
Yes Jesus is YHWH.

We can see through the scriptures that other living things can be refered to as god, but there is only 1 Almighty God which is Yhwh(Jehovah is some bibles LORD in some bibles)

Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.


Anyone who is YHWH is God Almighty.
But yes, the Son is given all power and authority in heaven and on earth.
But the Son already owns it and just waits for His inheritance and does not forcefully take what is His anyway, the equality He has with His Father. (John 16:15, Phil 2)

 

[Soapy]

Osiris was another god. It was not the real god, it was nothing real, but was a god because people served it.
Satan is god of this world for the same reason.
Angels are not real gods, they are like God in some ways and do the work of God and so are called gods.
Humans, like the judges of Psalm 82 are not real gods, they are just humans but they do the work of God and judge people, so they are called gods.
Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how about Him. He is the Son of God who is exactly like His Father and has the essence/nature of His Father.
He is probably the closest to God since God said that He gives His glory to nobody but Jesus has His glory, and God said to nobody is like Him, but Jesus is exactly like Him.



But of course there is only one YHWH.
Is Jesus also called YHWH.
Jesus said that everything that the Father has belongs to Him, Jesus. (John 16:15) That would include the name of God, and yes we do see that the Son does inherit the Father's name, the name above all names. (Heb 1:4, Phil 2)
YHWH alone stretches out the heavens and spread the earth (Isa 44:24) but the heavens are the work of Jesus hands (Heb 1:10-12)
YHWH is the one coming to judge the earth, but the Father judges nobody but has left that to the Son.
Yes Jesus is YHWH.



Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.


Anyone who is YHWH is God Almighty.
But yes, the Son is given all power and authority in heaven and on earth.
But the Son already owns it and just waits for His inheritance and does not forcefully take what is His anyway, the equality He has with His Father. (John 16:15, Phil 2)

Brian2, you need to search your conscience and find that you are speaking falsities in an attempt to glorify yourself.

But I understand that God has set certain ones of humanity to behave as you do. But God also warns those same ones to change their ways … it’s your burden to change to the truth.

You mix fallacy with truth so as to confuse those who are unwary… You know you are speaking falsely … but you think it is fun to be devious!!!
It won’t bd ‘fun’ when you are at the judgement seat…

I’ve warned you many times……..!

God has warned you many more times……..!

• 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

God gave Jesus the testimony that Jesus gave to the angel to give to mankind… Read the first verse along with the last:

• “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,”

Jesus is not Almighty God nor is ever EQUAL to almighty God. Even as God GRANTS power and authority to Jesus to act in His place, God is STILL greater …

For instance, Jesus could not usurp the throne of God - the SEAT OF POWER. God never relinquished His throne, not even to Jesus Christ.

The scriptures illustrates this situation in at least two places:

1. Pharoah, during the famine in Egypt, GRANTS Joseph all power and authority to rule in His place. But Pharoah RESTRAINS Joseph from taking Pharaoh’s throne:
   1. ‘In all things you are to be as ‘Pharoah’… excepting my throne!’
   2. “You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you.” (Gen 41:40)
2. Moses was granted the power to speak AS GOD to the Pharoah:
   1. GOD told Moses, “Look at me. I'll make you as a god to Pharaoh…”
3. Mordeciah was granted the power and authority of king Xerxes to rule until the day of Purim was over - all power and authority EXCEPTING for the throne of king Xerxes:
   1. “8Now write another decree in the king’s name in behalf of the Jews as seems best to you, and seal it with the king’s signet ring—for no document written in the king’s name and sealed with his ring can be revoked.” (Esther 8:8)

I know you will say you don’t see the parallels but nonetheless they are there and it cannot be denied truthfully: The one GRANTED to rule in the power and authority of the GREATER is never equal nor greater than the GREATER… nor can it ever be that:

• ‘He who receives is equal to of greater than he who receives from he who gives!’

Is it not an a surety that all the above ‘Hand back’ the power and authority that was granted to them at some time after the event they were granted was over?

Does scriptures not say that Jesus ‘Hands back’ power and authority TO GOD…?

Question: What was Jesus Christ BEFORE and AFTER he had power and authority … was he GOD or equal to God… Go who granted and took back power and authority to/from Jesus?

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, you need to search your conscience and find that you are speaking falsities in an attempt to glorify yourself.

But I understand that God has set certain ones of humanity to behave as you do. But God also warns those same ones to change their ways … it’s your burden to change to the truth.

You mix fallacy with truth so as to confuse those who are unwary… You know you are speaking falsely … but you think it is fun to be devious!!!
It won’t bd ‘fun’ when you are at the judgement seat…

I’ve warned you many times……..!

God has warned you many more times……..!

• 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

God gave Jesus the testimony that Jesus gave to the angel to give to mankind… Read the first verse along with the last:

• “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,”

Jesus is not Almighty God nor is ever EQUAL to almighty God. Even as God GRANTS power and authority to Jesus to act in His place, God is STILL greater …

For instance, Jesus could not usurp the throne of God - the SEAT OF POWER. God never relinquished His throne, not even to Jesus Christ.

The scriptures illustrates this situation in at least two places:

1. Pharoah, during the famine in Egypt, GRANTS Joseph all power and authority to rule in His place. But Pharoah RESTRAINS Joseph from taking Pharaoh’s throne:
   1. ‘In all things you are to be as ‘Pharoah’… excepting my throne!’
   2. “You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you.” (Gen 41:40)
2. Moses was granted the power to speak AS GOD to the Pharoah:
   1. GOD told Moses, “Look at me. I'll make you as a god to Pharaoh…”
3. Mordeciah was granted the power and authority of king Xerxes to rule until the day of Purim was over - all power and authority EXCEPTING for the throne of king Xerxes:
   1. “8Now write another decree in the king’s name in behalf of the Jews as seems best to you, and seal it with the king’s signet ring—for no document written in the king’s name and sealed with his ring can be revoked.” (Esther 8:8)

I know you will say you don’t see the parallels but nonetheless they are there and it cannot be denied truthfully: The one GRANTED to rule in the power and authority of the GREATER is never equal nor greater than the GREATER… nor can it ever be that:

• ‘He who receives is equal to of greater than he who receives from he who gives!’

Is it not an a surety that all the above ‘Hand back’ the power and authority that was granted to them at some time after the event they were granted was over?

Does scriptures not say that Jesus ‘Hands back’ power and authority TO GOD…?

Question: What was Jesus Christ BEFORE and AFTER he had power and authority … was he GOD or equal to God… Go who granted and took back power and authority to/from Jesus?

Jesus remains the Son of God all the way through, He does not change yesterday, today or forever. He has the same nature as His Father all along, unto eternity, our only Lord forever.

 

[Soapy]

First off a small correction.. Terah and clan leave Ur to go to Canaan but end up settling in Harran .. which is where Terah dies. Abe leaves Harran but does so with his family .. he does not depart from his family - and he takes lot and a bunch of other people with him as well.



Now this "Spirit of the one True God" never shows up during Abraham's life .. God shows up directly to Abraham and occasionally there is an angel of the Lord who shows up. The God who calls on Abe to come to Canaan .. is the "Most High" God of the Canaanites "EL"

I think you are making an issue where there was none:

1. Abraham left His Parents…. with his wife and nephew and those ‘servants’ whom were his from the family clan… Abraham was the head of this SEPARATED clan which took on the worship of the one true God … as opposed to the head of the family he departed from who were still worshipping pagan Gods
2. ‘Spirit of God’ … All I said was that the Spirit of God was the correct term for ‘the spirit of God’!!!! It is unambiguous in its meaning - unlike ‘Holy Spirit’!! It is completely obvious that the Spirit if God is ‘Holy’,,, ‘Be holy as I am holy’! The capitalisation of the superlative (’Holy’) is unnecessary tantamount to saying the ‘Godly true God’!! The whole point of saying ‘Holy Spirit’, which, by the way, is only rendered in the Greek-translated-to-English New Testament, which, as we know, was the work of trinitarian translators!!!

 

[Soapy]

Jesus remains the Son of God all the way through, He does not change yesterday, today or forever. He has the same nature as His Father all along, unto eternity, our only Lord forever.

Is it a ‘Change’ if someone BECOMES someone they were not?

Jesus DIED… and then was MADE TO BE (became) IMMORTAL when he was resurrected.

Because he died for our sins Jesus BECAME:

• “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”

God made Jesus to be:

• “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, [to be] both Lord and Messiah.”

Hmmm… Your linguistic knowledge needs a refresh if you think that a change can be effected without the thing that changed becoming something it previous was not.

But I know that you say what you say because you were made to say that….!!

 

[Brian2]

Is it a ‘Change’ if someone BECOMES someone they were not?

Jesus DIED… and then was MADE TO BE (became) IMMORTAL when he was resurrected.

Because he died for our sins Jesus BECAME:

• “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”

God made Jesus to be:

• “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, [to be] both Lord and Messiah.”

Hmmm… Your linguistic knowledge needs a refresh if you think that a change can be effected without the thing that changed becoming something it previous was not.

But I know that you say what you say because you were made to say that….!!

Jesus was the same person all along. Even when His body died, Jesus was the same person since His soul did not die when His body died.
As a man He was the same person He was in heaven.
In death He was the same person He was as a man.
In His resurrection into an immortal body He was the same person and did not change in essence and nature even if temporal things changed.
Jesus was Lord and Christ when born (LLuke 2:11) and this was declared to be so by His resurrection. That is what it means when it says that "God has made this Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,,,, both Lord and Messiah"

 

[Muffled]

YHVH = God as Particles (inside our Universe)
Elohim = God as Wave Function (Outside our Universe)

Different states of being depending on the need to interact outside or inside of our Universe.

I believe that qualifies as conjecture.

 

[Yokefellow]

I believe that qualifies as conjecture.

I bet Einstein and Feynman heard that a lot.

 

[Eli G]

... Even when His body died, Jesus was the same person since His soul did not die when His body died.
...

This is what the Scripture says:

Is. 53:12 ... he poured out his soul to the very death ...

 

[Yokefellow]

This is what the Scripture says:

Is. 53:12 ... he poured out his soul to the very death ...

Would this imply that Body, Soul and Spirit are three different things?

 

[Eli G]

Would this imply that Body, Soul and Spirit are three different things?

At least we know that the "soul" can be poured to the very death. This is the point here and now.

Actually, we read:

Matt. 10:39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

... so the soul can be lost ... and later found. Did Jesus lose his soul when he died and found it when he was resurrected?

Rev. 1:18 (...) I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever (...)

 

[Yokefellow]

At least we know that the "soul" can be poured to the very death. This is the point here and now.

Actually, we read:

Matt. 10:39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

... so the soul can be lost ... and later found. Did Jesus lose his soul when he died and found it when he was resurrected?

Rev. 1:18 (...) I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever (...)

I believe that Body, Soul and Spirit are definitely three separate entities. Body and Soul can be seen separated here...

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

My concern is that in order to destroy a Soul, it must go through the Lake of Fire. Thus, if we interpret Isaiah 53:12 as the Soul being destroyed, it presents an interesting view of what kind of Death was experienced.

 

[Yokefellow]

Romans 4:16
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"

The 'One' who sits on the Throne in Revelation is a picture of Abraham.

The 'Slain Lamb' represents the Blood of Jesus as well as the Seed of Abraham in Abraham's Loins.

The 'Rainbow Round About' represents the Holy Ghost.

All three combine as 'One'... i.e., as the Trinity.

God in his highest form exists outside as a 'Consuming Fire'...

Zechariah 2:5
"For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her."

I see this was ignored by the Non-Trinitarians.

 

[Brian2]

This is what the Scripture says:

Is. 53:12 ... he poured out his soul to the very death ...

There are different meanings of "soul" in different places in the Bible.
What do you think it means at Isa 53:12 and Matt 10:28?

 

[Yokefellow]

There are different meanings of "soul" in different places in the Bible.
What do you think it means at Isa 53:12 and Matt 10:28?

While we wait for @Eli G to respond, I will post my beliefs...

The two verses speak of the same thing.

A Soul is a Lifeform's Genome. It is the information required to create/re-create an individual.