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Did you hear the one about the disappearing planet?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Name something in the book that is relevant. Maybe I could teach the guy how to argue.
It's not one particular book. There are a good many books on evolution out there.

They would for example talk about what the science of genetics has revealed. They would present the fossil records of whales, which is really quite complete. Or the fossil record of the evolution of man, beginning with the Australopithecines, which is also quite complete. If you are honest, you would struggle with species like Homo Habilis and whether they are "apes" or "humans" precisely because they are transitional forms. You would have to deal with the direct observation of speciation of certain plants. I could go on and on.
 

dad

Undefeated
It's not one particular book. There are a good many books on evolution out there.
Get serious. Evolution is a religion and a system of beliefs that you could not begin to support. Why obfuscate? There is no evo book that is NOT faith-based.

They would for example talk about what the science of genetics has revealed.
They would show themselves religious then, since we do not know that our current genetics existed as we know it in the far past. Molecules, cells and atoms all must obey nature and unless nature was the same you cannot expect atoms and cells and genetics to have worked the same way. That should be obvious. So prove the nature and laws and forces were the same in the past or you may not talk genetics.

They would present the fossil records of whales, which is really quite complete.
They would be made fools of then. There are NOT remains of most creatures in the former nature. If they try to piece together some tree based on assuming the fossil record represents a cross section of life on earth, they are lost in confusion.

Or the fossil record of the evolution of man, beginning with the Australopithecines, which is also quite complete.
From dust we were made and to dust, we used to return! No remains were left for man and most animals in the ancient former nature.

.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Get serious. Evolution is a religion and a system of beliefs that you could not begin to support. Why obfuscate? There is no evo book that is NOT faith-based.
Religions are faith based. Science is evidence based.


They would show themselves religious then, since we do not know that our current genetics existed as we know it in the far past.
There is no reason to assume that there is a change. In order to believe things have changed, we would have to have evidence of a change. Can you supply that evidence? I thought not.

Again, read a book by a genuine PhD in biology. THEN come and argue with me.
 

dad

Undefeated
Religions are faith based. Science is evidence based.
Scripture is evidence-based. So-called science is faith-based. That was easy.


There is no reason to assume that there is a change.
Or not. Yet you do assume and believe there was not. Funny, that.

In order to believe things have changed, we would have to have evidence of a change.
In order for history and Scripture to be true things would have needed to change. You have no evidence they did not. Yet you use a belief that it did not as the foundation for evo claims. Busted.

Your approach should be to say 'I don't know'.

Again, read a book by a genuine PhD in biology.
If you think that applies to the far past, you might as well hire a plumber to tell you.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Scripture is evidence-based. So-called science is faith-based. That was easy.
Whoa there. You are absolutely wrong. It takes real faith to believe that Scripture, yours, mine, Mormon's, Muslim's, indeed ANYONE's scriptures are from God and therefore reliable. This idea is NOT evidence based, sir.
 

dad

Undefeated
Whoa there. You are absolutely wrong
Not at all, you are.


It takes real faith to believe that Scripture, yours, mine, Mormon's, Muslim's, indeed ANYONE's scriptures are from God and therefore reliable.

So what? Actual Scripture is evidenced six ways from Sunday. It works today in lives, Jesus rose from the dead, most Bible prophecy is now History etc etc etc. It works and has been demonstrated true. The faith bit is more akin to not rejecting God and reality. In the sense that we cannot prove all of it at the moment, sure, faith is involved.
This idea is NOT evidence based, sir.
So-called sciences dealing in origins are not evidence-based, sir. Not in any way at all. They are a fraud and a con job that is wholly based on faith and faith alone and nothing whatsoever but faith.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Actual Scripture is evidenced six ways from Sunday. It works today in lives, Jesus rose from the dead, most Bible prophecy is now History etc etc etc. It works and has been demonstrated true. The faith bit is more akin to not rejecting God and reality. In the sense that we cannot prove all of it at the moment, sure, faith is involved.
All these same things could be said about the Book of Mormon or the Quran. Obviously they can't ALL be the word of God since they contradict each other.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
None of them actually. You kidding?
I'm just saying, your "evidence" for your Bible is the same type of evidence for the BoM and the Quran...and it's not really evidence at all.

My point is that...
I take it by faith that the Torah is God's word.
You take it by faith that your Christian Bible is God's word.
A LDS takes it by faith that the BoM is God's word.
A Muslim takes it by faith that the Quran is God's word.
 

dad

Undefeated
I'm just saying, your "evidence" for your Bible is the same type of evidence for the BoM and the Quran...and it's not really evidence at all.
Nothing similar. As for demons appearing to various people in history, I do not find that evidence of much.

My point is that...
I take it by faith that the Torah is God's word.
You take it by faith that your Christian Bible is God's word.
No. I take it both are.
A LDS takes it by faith that the BoM is God's word.
They might as well take it that writing on a package of toilet paper is god's word. That is no relation to the time tested and proven word of God.

A Muslim takes it by faith that the Quran is God's word.
No comparison. Prophesies are not mostly fulfilled and now history from that book. Neither did they rise from the dead.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Nothing similar. As for demons appearing to various people in history, I do not find that evidence of much.
You see, I can't relate to this. It is obvious to me that the Quran, BoM, Christian Scriptures are written by men, not demons. The "angelic" inspirations are fabrications, not actual spiritual entities.

For the Torah, it is also written by Men, although I do have faith that God had a hand in it as well. But as I said, that is faith. It is not evidence based. We cannot prove the existence of God, much less that God helped to write a spiritual text. It is something we decide we will believe.

I'm afraid you suffer from "confirmation bias."
 

dad

Undefeated
You see, I can't relate to this. It is obvious to me that the Quran, BoM, Christian Scriptures are written by men, not demons. The "angelic" inspirations are fabrications, not actual spiritual entities.
Prove it!? Your hunches do not determine reality.

For the Torah, it is also written by Men, although I do have faith that God had a hand in it as well. But as I said, that is faith. It is not evidence based.
The articles from the exodus were in the ark of the covenant for many years. That is evidence. The ark was powerful and enemies had to return it to Israel after tens of thousands of them died. The nations of the area were foretold long before they ruled. Greece, Rome, Medo Persia. Babylon was prophesied to be taking Jews into captivity for seventy years and it did. This is all evidence. Jesus was seen by over 500 people after rising from the dead, that is evidence. His miracles were seen. Jesus had worked in the lives of billions and made Himself known as alive and well. That is evidence. Etc etc etc etc etc etc.
What you mean is that you reject a world of evidence for absolutely no reason.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Prove it!? Your hunches do not determine reality.
Actually there is plenty of evidence for me to base my belief on. Is it 100% certain? No. But it is highly probable. I'll gamble on the best probability.

What is unlikely, improbable, is that supernatural forces were involved in the writings of these texts. It's simply an unnecessary explanation. It's like saying someone used a brain surgeon to remove a splinter.

The articles from the exodus were in the ark of the covenant for many years. That is evidence. The ark was powerful and enemies had to return it to Israel after tens of thousands of them died. The nations of the area were foretold long before they ruled. Greece, Rome, Medo Persia. Babylon was prophesied to be taking Jews into captivity for seventy years and it did. This is all evidence. Jesus was seen by over 500 people after rising from the dead, that is evidence. His miracles were seen. Jesus had worked in the lives of billions and made Himself known as alive and well. That is evidence. Etc etc etc etc etc etc.
What you mean is that you reject a world of evidence for absolutely no reason.
That the tablets with the commandments were placed in the Ark is a MATTER OF FAITH, not a fact of history, even if it actually happened. I believe it because I choose to have faith. We simply don't have any objective evidence of it.

Again, believing that Jesus did all sorts of miracles is a matter of FAITH. It is not historical fact, even if it actually happened (which I don't think so). We simply don't have any objective evidence of it. What we have are texts written decades after the fact, well enough after for legend to be added to history (especially by believers in the new cult).
 

dad

Undefeated
Actually there is plenty of evidence for me to base my belief on. Is it 100% certain? No. But it is highly probable. I'll gamble on the best probability.
Probable has no meaning when making stuff up. Jesus said Scripture was from God. He proved it by fulfilling it.

What is unlikely, improbable, is that supernatural forces were involved in the writings of these texts. It's simply an unnecessary explanation. It's like saying someone used a brain surgeon to remove a splinter.
Since God says otherwise and angels and demons confirmed it, your guess is not rooted in any fact or evidence.


That the tablets with the commandments were placed in the Ark is a MATTER OF FAITH, not a fact of history, even if it actually happened
. A nation's official records say it was. Your opinion that it was not is a matter of faith.

I believe it because I choose to have faith. We simply don't have any objective evidence of it.
Or not. We do have God proving He is real to millions of people and most bible prophesy now being history. Nothing subjective about that!
Again, believing that Jesus did all sorts of miracles is a matter of FAITH.
A matter of record actually. Your doubts are the matter of faith.
It is not historical fact, even if it actually happened (which I don't think so).
Not Satan's history. Not pagan history (although it confirms much of Scripture). It is a matter of Israel's history and Scriptural history.
We simply don't have any objective evidence of it. What we have are texts written decades after the fact, well enough after for legend to be added to history (especially by believers in the new cult).

If you looked at bible prophesy objectively you would see it is not mostly history actually. Those who have tried God have found He is real also. Nothing touchy feely about that. Your doubts are not objective!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Probable has no meaning when making stuff up. Jesus said Scripture was from God. He proved it by fulfilling it.


Since God says otherwise and angels and demons confirmed it, your guess is not rooted in any fact or evidence.


. A nation's official records say it was. Your opinion that it was not is a matter of faith.

Or not. We do have God proving He is real to millions of people and most bible prophesy now being history. Nothing subjective about that!
A matter of record actually. Your doubts are the matter of faith.
Not Satan's history. Not pagan history (although it confirms much of Scripture). It is a matter of Israel's history and Scriptural history.


If you looked at bible prophesy objectively you would see it is not mostly history actually. Those who have tried God have found He is real also. Nothing touchy feely about that. Your doubts are not objective!

Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophecies, which are really rather few (not the hundreds and thousands that Chrisitans imagine).

As for the history that the Tanakh records, we Jews disagree over its historical accuracy. Some believe it is completely accurate. Some think it is wholly legend. And still other, like me, think it is based in fact, but has elements of legend that have also grown up around it. (It also depends on which book you are reading -- some are more historical than others.) But the very existence of contradicting facts eliminates the Protestant Evangelical idea that it is without error.
 

dad

Undefeated
Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophecies, which are really rather few (not the hundreds and thousands that Chrisitans imagine).
Yes, He sure did.

As for the history that the Tanakh records, we Jews disagree over its historical accuracy. Some believe it is completely accurate.
You thought you got a vote?

Some think it is wholly legend. And still other, like me, think it is based in fact, but has elements of legend that have also grown up around it. (It also depends on which book you are reading -- some are more historical than others.) But the very existence of contradicting facts eliminates the Protestant Evangelical idea that it is without error.
Name any two errors.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, He sure did.


You thought you got a vote?

Name any two errors.
Let's start with some errors.

I had a hard time choosing what contradiction to list. Sorry for the delay.

In 2 Samuel 10:18 we are told that David killed 700 Aramaeans in chariots and forty thousand horsemen, mortally wounding Shophach. But in 1 Chronicles 19:18 we are told that he killed 7,000 Aramaeans in chariots and forty thousand infantry men, killing Shophach. These are obviously errors of transcription ... 700 becomes 7000, and horsemen becomes infantry.


Then there are the verses that are just factually wrong. For example, a Camel very well DOES have a split hoof, in fact the split is more pronounced in a camel than a cow.

"There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you." (Leviticus 11:4)
 
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dad

Undefeated
In 2 Samuel 10:18 we are told that David killed 700 Aramaeans in chariots and forty thousand horsemen, mortally wounding Shophach. But in 1 Chronicles 19:18 we are told that he killed 7,000 Aramaeans in chariots and forty thousand infantry men, killing Shophach. These are obviously errors of transcription ... 700 becomes 7000, and horsemen becomes infantry.

Looking at this commentary we see a different opinion.

"
2 Samuel 10:18

And the Syrians fled before Israel
After an obstinate and bloody fight between them:

and David slew [the men of] seven hundred chariots of the Syrians;
the word "men" is rightly supplied, for chariots could not be said to be slain, but the men in them; in (1 Chronicles 19:17) , they are said to be seven thousand, here seven hundred; which may be reconciled by observing, that here the chariots that held the men are numbered, there the number of the men that were in the chariots given, and reckoning ten men in a chariot, seven hundred chariots held just seven thousand men; though Kimchi takes another way of reconciling the two places, by observing that here only the choicest chariots are mentioned, there all of them, but the former way seems best:

and forty thousand horsemen;
in (1 Chronicles 19:17) ; it is forty thousand "footmen", and so Josephus F3; and the same may be called both horse and foot, be cause though they might come into the field of battle on horseback, yet might dismount and fight on foot; and so one historian calls them horsemen, and the other footmen; or the whole number of the slain, horse and foot mixed together, were forty thousand; Kimchi makes use of another way of removing this difficulty, and which perhaps is the best, that here only the horsemen are numbered that were slain, and there the footmen only, and both true; an equal number of each being slain, in all eighty thousand, besides the seven thousand in the chariots:"

2 Samuel - Chapter 10 - Verse 18 - The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible on StudyLight.org

Once again it seems thar some people prefer to give doubt itself the benefit of the doubt. The error here seems to be in assuming there was an error.


Then there are the verses that are just factually wrong. For example, a Camel very well DOES have a split hoof, in fact the split is more pronounced in a camel than a cow.

"There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you." (Leviticus 11:4)

This commentary disagrees.

" 4. the camel--It does to a certain extent divide the hoof, for the foot consists of two large parts, but the division is not complete; the toes rest upon an elastic pad on which the animal goes; as a beast of burden its flesh is tough. An additional reason for its prohibition might be to keep the Israelites apart from the descendants of Ishmael."

Leviticus - Chapter 11 - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary on StudyLight.org

And in wiki we see this..

"Animals that both chew their cud (ruminate, i.e. regurgitate partly digested food from a specialised multi-chambered stomach back to the mouth to be chewed for a second time as part of their ordinary digestive process) and have split true cloven hooves (a hoof being hard or rubbery sole and a hard wall formed by a thick nail) are allowed (kosher, lit. "fit") for Jewish consumption. Those animals that have neither of these two characteristics, or only one of the characteristics, are considered unclean animals (treif, not fit for Jewish consumption) and Jews are forbidden to eat them. This rule thus excludes the camel from the list of kosher animals because although the camel does ruminate, it does not possess true "hooves" – it walks on soft toes which have little more than a nail merely giving an appearance of a "hoof".

Cloven hoof - Wikipedia

Both your examples then are shot down in flames.


How sweet it is.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Looking at this commentary we see a different opinion.

"
2 Samuel 10:18

And the Syrians fled before Israel
After an obstinate and bloody fight between them:

and David slew [the men of] seven hundred chariots of the Syrians;
the word "men" is rightly supplied, for chariots could not be said to be slain, but the men in them; in (1 Chronicles 19:17) , they are said to be seven thousand, here seven hundred; which may be reconciled by observing, that here the chariots that held the men are numbered, there the number of the men that were in the chariots given, and reckoning ten men in a chariot, seven hundred chariots held just seven thousand men; though Kimchi takes another way of reconciling the two places, by observing that here only the choicest chariots are mentioned, there all of them, but the former way seems best:

and forty thousand horsemen;
in (1 Chronicles 19:17) ; it is forty thousand "footmen", and so Josephus F3; and the same may be called both horse and foot, be cause though they might come into the field of battle on horseback, yet might dismount and fight on foot; and so one historian calls them horsemen, and the other footmen; or the whole number of the slain, horse and foot mixed together, were forty thousand; Kimchi makes use of another way of removing this difficulty, and which perhaps is the best, that here only the horsemen are numbered that were slain, and there the footmen only, and both true; an equal number of each being slain, in all eighty thousand, besides the seven thousand in the chariots:"

2 Samuel - Chapter 10 - Verse 18 - The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible on StudyLight.org

Once again it seems thar some people prefer to give doubt itself the benefit of the doubt. The error here seems to be in assuming there was an error.




This commentary disagrees.

" 4. the camel--It does to a certain extent divide the hoof, for the foot consists of two large parts, but the division is not complete; the toes rest upon an elastic pad on which the animal goes; as a beast of burden its flesh is tough. An additional reason for its prohibition might be to keep the Israelites apart from the descendants of Ishmael."

Leviticus - Chapter 11 - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary on StudyLight.org

And in wiki we see this..

"Animals that both chew their cud (ruminate, i.e. regurgitate partly digested food from a specialised multi-chambered stomach back to the mouth to be chewed for a second time as part of their ordinary digestive process) and have split true cloven hooves (a hoof being hard or rubbery sole and a hard wall formed by a thick nail) are allowed (kosher, lit. "fit") for Jewish consumption. Those animals that have neither of these two characteristics, or only one of the characteristics, are considered unclean animals (treif, not fit for Jewish consumption) and Jews are forbidden to eat them. This rule thus excludes the camel from the list of kosher animals because although the camel does ruminate, it does not possess true "hooves" – it walks on soft toes which have little more than a nail merely giving an appearance of a "hoof".

Cloven hoof - Wikipedia

Both your examples then are shot down in flames.


How sweet it is.
These answers are pretty desparate. for example, 10 men on one chariot? really????? I think not.

As for what a cloven hoof is, it is two toes rather than just one toe. A hoof is usually the nail of the toe. If the text had made the objection that a camel does not actually walk on the nail, it would have been a valid objection. But the text assumes a genuine hoof, just one that is not divided. It's just a mistake, like saying that rabbits chew their cud (they actually chew up their poops) or grouping bats with birds instead of mammals. You can try to do logical back flips to make these mistakes more palatable, but your gymnastics will always look desperate.
 

dad

Undefeated
These answers are pretty desparate. for example, 10 men on one chariot? really????? I think not.

As for what a cloven hoof is, it is two toes rather than just one toe. A hoof is usually the nail of the toe. If the text had made the objection that a camel does not actually walk on the nail, it would have been a valid objection. But the text assumes a genuine hoof, just one that is not divided. It's just a mistake, like saying that rabbits chew their cud (they actually chew up their poops) or grouping bats with birds instead of mammals. You can try to do logical back flips to make these mistakes more palatable, but your gymnastics will always look desperate.
The original rabbits and camels were probably different. Camels had to adapt to sand and etc. Since Scripture will outlast the present nature, one would hope that a more proper description of the kinds would exist. This seems to be what we do see here!
Yet even here, as wiki said, the camel would not be considered clean.

As for the men in the chariots that were killed, the commentary I linked suggested it may be that each chariot carried ten men that got killed in battle. No one says that ten men all had to be in each chariot at once! Could it have been in that particular battle, that chariots shuttled soldiers to the battle and some made several trips?

Looking at the battle that fits. The two forces were separated, and Israel came against each one. If Israel started losing on one front, the other Israeli army would help them, if they had won their battle. There was a hasty retreat.

11 And he said, If the Syrians be too strong for me, then thou shalt help me: but if the children of Ammon be too strong for thee, then I will come and help thee. 12 Be of good courage, and let us play the men for our people, and for the cities of our God: and the LORD do that which seemeth him good. 13 And Joab drew nigh, and the people that were with him, unto the battle against the Syrians: and they fled before him. 14 And when the children of Ammon saw that the Syrians were fled, then fled they also before Abishai, and entered into the city. So Joab returned from the children of Ammon, and came to Jerusalem. 15 And when the Syrians saw that they were smitten before Israel, they gathered themselves together. 16 And Hadarezer sent, and brought out the Syrians that were beyond the river: and they came to Helam; and Shobach the captain of the host of Hadarezer went before them.

There was the retreats on both fronts. Then they gathered together again. A lot of troops needed to be moved fast. Both in the retreats and the regathering. Those soldiers got killed soon after. Ha.
 
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