Did You Choose Your Truth?

[Trailblazer]

Clearly, those messengers do not Understand God!!! Continue to value punishment, anger, wrath, hate, revenge, payback all in the name of justice. God is very patient. See if you ever fix the problem.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Clearly you do not understand God.

The Messengers are the only ones who understand God but if we read what they revealed we can also understand something about God.
For example, Baha'u'llah wrote:
“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings, p. 219

Sometimes God has wrath but God does not value anger, hate, revenge, or payback in the name of justice.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

It's not that evil and good are the same other than they are nothing more than choices. Should not all children be the same regardless of their choices? Should not one work toward resolution instead of focus on hurting and hating in an attempt to alter the actions of another?

Do I make the assumption the problem can be fixed? I have seen many people learn, grow and reach a Higher Level. Isn't it better than assuming things can't be fixed? If one assumes things can't be fixed, will anything really ever get fixed??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

They are not the same though. Good and evil are not to be equated nor positive value beautiful treasurable souls vs negative value ugly trash souls seen on par of each other and to be dealt with the same way by God. Unconditional love is unjust towards good people and won't solve anything.

I don't think learning at time of death would mean you reform. That assumes the decisions that made were evil, were done due to lack of knowledge or experience. I don't believe either is the case.

I believe the problem is that once a soul is corrupted it's mostly because it deceives and lies to itself and others. It's masked within a mask of deception from is own doing.

If it comes back to this world, no amount of knowledge, will make it more truthful. Some knowledge needs to be decimated, and reminders, but they are enough now and always has been. The souls who won't be reformed don't do it because of what they don't know. It's because of injustice and the main thing is deceiving and lying to oneself and others. They can't even be truthful to God when talking to God or reminded of his judgment, is how much they are caught in self-deception and deceiving others.

 

[Muffled]

In another thread, it was suggested the people choose their truth. Choice implies that can select other options.

Are your truths a result of choice?

Did you choose your worldview, your core values, or what you believe? Can you just flip a switch and change your worldview, core values, or beliefs?

Discuss.

I believe I did not. I chose to recognize the truth.

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for the clarification. In that case I did not choose it. It was there, and I became aware of it, but it wasn't a choice. If you're walking through a forest, and see a deer bouncing ahead of you, was that a choice?

Yes. I believe you could consider it a phantom and not a real deer.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe I did not. I chose to recognize the truth.

I believe I also chose to recognize the truth, with guidance from God.

 

[Ella S.]

Yes, I have chosen my truth, in a sense.

I've chosen my basis for truth, at least. I make a choice every time I decide to take a thought process and scrutinize it for logical validity. I make a choice every time I double-check something I hear that sounds right in order to make sure it actually aligns with the evidence. I make a choice to force myself to wait after I make a judgment so that my System 2 mind has a chance to "catch up" and correct any errors I might have made. I make a choice to try to recognize my assumptions and challenge them, even if they go against popular consensus.

I could simply stop putting in the effort to scrutinize my beliefs and compare them to the standards of reason. It would be effortless. I'd end up believing many things for many different reasons. I'd probably fall back into believing things based purely on intuition and emotion. All I'd have to do is stop choosing to engage in my self-correcting mechanisms.

I recognize that most people have not cultivated such mechanisms at all. Some of them prefer different standards of comparison, such as religious doctrine or scripture. I think that's a choice, too, although I think it's often a coerced one. Fear of rejection from your community, fear of Hell, and fear of God himself could all make someone cling to a religious standard at the expense of a logical one. I don't think it's right to blame people for that, but I hope they learn to free themselves of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I have chosen my truth, in a sense.

I've chosen my basis for truth, at least. I make a choice every time I decide to take a thought process and scrutinize it for logical validity. I make a choice every time I double-check something I hear that sounds right in order to make sure it actually aligns with the evidence. I make a choice to force myself to wait after I make a judgment so that my System 2 mind has a chance to "catch up" and correct any errors I might have made. I make a choice to try to recognize my assumptions and challenge them, even if they go against popular consensus.

I could simply stop putting in the effort to scrutinize my beliefs and compare them to the standards of reason. It would be effortless. I'd end up believing many things for many different reasons. I'd probably fall back into believing things based purely on intuition and emotion. All I'd have to do is stop choosing to engage in my self-correcting mechanisms.

I recognize that most people have not cultivated such mechanisms at all. Some of them prefer different standards of comparison, such as religious doctrine or scripture. I think that's a choice, too, although I think it's often a coerced one. Fear of rejection from your community, fear of Hell, and fear of God himself could all make someone cling to a religious standard at the expense of a logical one. I don't think it's right to blame people for that, but I hope they learn to free themselves of it.

My thought process is similar to yours even though I am a believer, since I scrutinize everything I believe before I accept is as true.
I cannot and will not believe things that make no sense to me even if they are in scriptures.

 

[Ella S.]

My thought process is similar to yours even though I am a believer, since I scrutinize everything I believe before I accept is as true.
I cannot and will not believe things that make no sense to me even if they are in scriptures.

I've noticed. That's something I've respected about you for awhile now. I wish more believers took that kind of approach. It would make dialogue with them a lot more productive. I've noticed that even you struggle to have conversations with other believers because of your rational mindset, and I'm sorry about that.

I definitely think there are plenty of irrational non-believers, too, even on this forum. Like I said, I think most people just don't bother going to these lengths to try to be reasonable. I'm not sure that it has much to do with whether one is or isn't a believer, but if there is a correlation then I'd wager it's a relatively weak one.

I can think of quite a few highly rational philosophers throughout history who have believed in God and made reasonable cases for one, even if I think those arguments don't quite work for one reason or another. Still, sometimes I meet a believer who has a similarly rational approach and it's honestly such a breath of fresh air. I think you're one of them.

 

[Bird123]

The solution is very simple. If everyone obeyed the secular laws the laws of God there would be no need to punish people.
Please let me know when you figure out a way to make everyone obey those laws.

God will continue to send Messengers and eventually most people will follow them and obey their laws, in which case the problem will be mostly solved, but as long as humans have free will I think there will always be some people who break the law and need to be imprisoned.

Laws??? I have received no Laws at all from God. Isn't it mankind who is big on making laws in an attempt to rule and control others?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I

No, God is not fixing the problems that people have because God wants people to fix their own problems.
By sending Messengers who reveal teachings and laws, God provides everything that people need to fix their own problems.

If the messengers are fixing the problems, why is what they do not helping?

Wouldn't you be surprised on how much God is really Fixing and all what God is really doing?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Clearly you do not understand God.

The Messengers are the only ones who understand God but if we read what they revealed we can also understand something about God.
For example, Baha'u'llah wrote:
“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings, p. 219

Sometimes God has wrath but God does not value anger, hate, revenge, or payback in the name of justice.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

A Being capable of creating all this must be very very Smart. Could it be neither you nor your messengers really understand at all? How much is being missed? On the other hand, doesn't it seem like you are describing mankind and mankind's wishes instead of God? It seems that way to me.

Why has your messengers not fixed everything? How about they, along with so many, have so much more to Learn before they will be able to create a Heavenly state for themselves and others?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Laws??? I have received no Laws at all from God.

How did you expect to receive them special delivery from the USPS?

Isn't it mankind who is big on making laws in an attempt to rule and control others?

No, there are laws from God and laws men make, the laws that every country in the world puts in place, with judges and juries.
Waked up and smell the coffee. Even if there was no God at all, society needs laws and punishments for breaking those laws.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

A Being capable of creating all this must be very very Smart. Could it be neither you nor your messengers really understand at all?

Could it be you who does not understand?

How much is being missed? On the other hand, doesn't it seem like you are describing mankind and mankind's wishes instead of God? It seems that way to me.

No, I am describing God's wishes. What you describe are mankind's wishes, not to be punished or pay any penalties for crimes they commit.

Why has your messengers not fixed everything?

The messengers are not sent by God to fix anything. They are sent to bring a message that contains what humans need to fix themselves..

How about they, along with so many, have so much more to Learn before they will be able to create a Heavenly state for themselves and others?

The messengers don't have any more to learn since that have all the knowledge that God has revealed to them, the knowledge of all that is.

 

[Bird123]

They are not the same though. Good and evil are not to be equated nor positive value beautiful treasurable souls vs negative value ugly trash souls seen on par of each other and to be dealt with the same way by God. Unconditional love is unjust towards good people and won't solve anything.

I don't think learning at time of death would mean you reform. That assumes the decisions that made were evil, were done due to lack of knowledge or experience. I don't believe either is the case.

I believe the problem is that once a soul is corrupted it's mostly because it deceives and lies to itself and others. It's masked within a mask of deception from is own doing.

If it comes back to this world, no amount of knowledge, will make it more truthful. Some knowledge needs to be decimated, and reminders, but they are enough now and always has been. The souls who won't be reformed don't do it because of what they don't know. It's because of injustice and the main thing is deceiving and lying to oneself and others. They can't even be truthful to God when talking to God or reminded of his judgment, is how much they are caught in self-deception and deceiving others.

Are you sure one will not change having Lived the sides one causes? Have you ever said the words: I'll never do that again???? Isn't the learning staring you in the face?

Do people really must learn and grow at the rate you choose? Why? There is Eternity to work with. Is anyone really placing time limits? Isn't it just your assumption death is a time limit?

How is Unconditional Love unfair to people who make good choices? By being evil or making bad choices doesn't one choose much harder lessons for oneself? I do not see how things are unfair.

Isn't the only fair thing to do is set up a system where all the children end up making the Best choices regardless of how long it takes? Would not this eliminate the need for hate, anger, wrath, revenge, payback and all the misery one creates for oneself hanging onto such petty things?

How much hurt does one create for oneself hanging unto these things? Is there a better choice that can be made? Still, like you said. Each must choose what kind of life to create for oneself. Each must decide for oneself then judge the results. In time, won't everyone end up making the best choices regardless of the journey one chooses to make? Isn't it just a matter of time?

When I think of God, I see God's Genius at work. I find there is always more to see and Discover.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Could it be you who does not understand?

No, I am describing God's wishes. What you describe are mankind's wishes, not to be punished or pay any penalties for crimes they commit.

The messengers are not sent by God to fix anything. They are sent to bring a message that contains what humans need to fix themselves..

The messengers don't have any more to learn since that have all the knowledge that God has revealed to them, the knowledge of all that is.

You are right. My focus is not on punishment at all. My focus is on Fixing the problem so it does not return to create the need or some people's desire to punish and hurt others.

Hmm? Are you saying no one should be trying to fix or help fix others? Is your God teaching a selfish view? Are the messengers teaching others to be selfish by not fixing? Is their lacking so bad that they even refuse to try?

If the messengers have the knowledge of all that is, why is mankind still using fossil fuels as an energy source? It seems those messengers are lacking in so very much knowledge to me.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't the only fair thing to do is set up a system where all the children end up making the Best choices regardless of how long it takes?

You do not know that everyone will end up making the Best choices regardless of how long it takes, you only believe that.
You do not know that there will be 'another chance' to make better choices after this life is over, you only believe that.

In time, won't everyone end up making the best choices regardless of the journey one chooses to make? Isn't it just a matter of time?

There is absolutely no reason to think that 'in time' everyone will end up making the best choices.
You do not know that, you only believe that. There is no reason to believe that. You believe it because you want to justify your belief system of called Discovery.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

You do not know that everyone will end up making the Best choices regardless of how long it takes, you only believe that.
You do not know that there will be 'another chance' to make better choices after this life is over, you only believe that.

There is absolutely no reason to think that 'in time' everyone will end up making the best choices.
You do not know that, you only believe that. There is no reason to believe that. You believe it because you want to justify your belief system of called Discovery.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

@Bird123 is a very patient poster at putting his views. I don't agree with him but I don't think it's fair to say he provided no reason.

He sees it that when souls see actions + unconditional love, it sets up that they try to reform and gets things better the next time.

I think there is problems with this view, but to be fair, he has set up reasoning.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are right. My focus is not on punishment at all. My focus is on Fixing the problem so it does not return to create the need or some people's desire to punish and hurt others.

The Baha'i Faith focus is also on Fixing the problem and that is why God sent Baha'u'llah!
The problem is that the prevailing order in the world is lamentably defective.

“How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?… The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 216

The focus of the Baha'i Faith not on punishment, which is only something that is sometimes necessary to obtain justice and protect society.

Hmm? Are you saying no one should be trying to fix or help fix others? Is your God teaching a selfish view? Are the messengers teaching others to be selfish by not fixing? Is their lacking so bad that they even refuse to try?

No, that is not what I am saying. Fixing thins and helping others is the focus of the Baha'i Faith.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

If the messengers have the knowledge of all that is, why is mankind still using fossil fuels as an energy source? It seems those messengers are lacking in so very much knowledge to me.

Messengers of God know everything but they do not reveal everything that they know. Their purpose is to educate mankind on spiritual matters, so they teach us about God and they teach us how to live together in love and harmony, not to weigh in on matters that are for scientists to address.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Bird123 is a very patient poster at putting his views. I don't agree with him but I don't think it's fair to say he provided no reason.

He sees it that when souls see actions + unconditional love, it sets up that they try to reform and gets things better the next time.

I think there is problems with this view, but to be fair, he has set up reasoning.

I know the reason that he believes that everyone will eventually make the best choices is because he believes in reincarnation,
I do not believe in reincarnation but even if I did, there is nor reason to believe that eventually everyone will make the best choices.

 

[Link]

I know the reason that he believes that everyone will eventually make the best choices is because he believes in reincarnation,
I do not believe in reincarnation but even if I did, there is nor reason to believe that eventually everyone will make the best choices.

I agree with you but you have to show where his reasoning fails. Why does witnessing unconditional love and witnessing one’s actions not lead to potential improvement over many times. I see it that once the soul is corrupted with lying nature it becomes increasingly difficult to cure. That knowledge is not the problem. Of course God could’ve set it up that there be no evil in the first place too. Some souls can reform but it’s unlikely if one was untruthful to promise to God on a clean slate to be truthful the next time around.